Joe Toup

Did this ever get resolved? If so, can you provide what the fix was? Thanks - JT

One question I that I forgot to ask. Do you hear it trying to engage but it just doesn’t turn over? Or is it simply dead in the water. Reason I am asking, if the solenoid is attempting to engage (you should hear it) but just doesn’t turn over the engine, you have a whole other issue. I don’t even want to dig that hole before we go over other stuff. Another thing to consider, the ignition switch. A loose wire/bad switch could prevent starting even if you get some dash lights. Last question. Have you checked the brake switch (foot on brake to start engages switch)? If that switch is bad, even when you press the brake to start, it won’t let the circuit complete for the ECU to send the signal to the starter. It would be worthwhile to check it. If you turn the key and your brake lights are on when you aren’t pressing the pedal…the switch could be faulty. Or, with key on and pressing the brakes you get no brake lights, that would be another clue the switch is toast. One other thing I’ve seen with those switches, where they mount they can come loose enough not to make contact when you press the brake. Make sure it is securely mounted. Just quick things to check. Always check for loose or corroded connections, wires that may have come disconnected at switches, etc. This will probably be something easy but not obvious at first without ruling out the simple stuff one thing at a time. Write down things you check as you go thru the machine investigating. All the stuff I suggested to look at should only take a few minutes and does not cost anything to check. Let me know what you find. - Joe

Based solely on what you described, I’d say it’s most likely one of two things…and these are easy to rule out without spending money bad battery bad cables Check battery to see if it has a full charge. But…even with a full charge, a bad cell could cause a voltage drop when trying to crank. You can pull it and take it to advance auto. They will check it for free and let you know if it has bad cells. Cables and/or their connections are also a notorious reason for not cranking when fuses and starter are deemed as good. Corrosion where the cables connect can cause bad connections. Make sure connections are clean and cables are tight. If the cable itself is corroded internally from sitting too long outdoors in rain, etc., the corrosion can build too much resistance this not letting enough “juice” flow from the battery to the starter. I’d check those things first since they are easy. If those things don’t help, will need some more info to help peel the onion back more. I.e. Have you checked fault codes? - Joe

Hey Mr. Mech - I've had VIPs in town this week so I have not had time to do much other than entertain. Sounds like you've checked all of the usual suspects. I'm about fresh out of ideas on a 700 Alligator. I'm looking for a manual to see if there is anything that might have been overlooked. The only thing left that might be a contributing factor would be the crank position sensor. But the symptoms don't make sense for a CPS. I will tell you this. One thing that has bitten me so many times I cannot even count is valve lash. Believe it or not, if the lash gives up the ghost you can have hard starting, bad idle, and shutdowns once it gets warm. Too tight or too loose can do either. I know it sounds implausible but I've survived the frustration of finding bad valve lash after I ran out of ideas. Without seeing the machine in-person, hard to diagnose. Even harder if you're not getting any fault codes. A valve lash won't throw codes directly. But it can cause igniter codes and coolant temp sensor codes. Don't ask me why. You'd have to ask a mechanical engineer. But I've seen it. Can you walk me through the situation from a cold start? What happens and when does it shut down? Is it hard to start? Crank forever or start right up? Does it begin to shut down only after it gets warm, or is it all the time? The more info you can provide, the better we can frame your problem. - JT

Hey Mr. Mech - What you described sounds a lot like a faulty TPS sensor or wires. Even if you change the TPS, you can get a bad TPS sensor out of the box. However, most often a bad wire to/from the ECU will do what you described. If you lose the TPS signal, the ECU will let the machine idle, but increasing the throttle the TPS won't tell the ECU to increase the fuel demand. If it runs better when you restrict the fuel return, this is another clue that the TPS portion of the system is out of whack, Did you ever get a fault code of P0122 or P0123? Those are typical TPS codes. The system is easy to check. The TPS has a 3-wire connector. While I have not worked on an Alligator 700, your machine should be very similar. Pin 1 should be green with a black stripe. That is your ground. It comes directly from the ECU. If you lose ground, you will have all sorts of problems. Pin 2 is usually a blue wire with a red stripe. That is your 5-volt source also from the ECU. Pin 3 should be yellow with a black stripe. This is the signal return wire that talks to the ECU. Test 1: Using a meter set on ohms, see if the signal changes between pins 2 & 3 when you move the throttle (machine off) Test 2: Using a meter set on DC volts, see if you get the 5 volts coming from the ECU at pin 2 (machine on) Test 3: Using a meter set on Ohms, see if you get the ground coming from the ECU at pin 1 (machine on) If all of these are good, then I'd recommend you check your wires for a loose, corroded, disconnected wire. Also, when you changed the TPS, did you do a hard reset on the ECU to clean out the memory? I'd need more info before I could suggest anything else. - JT

Sounds like you're on the right track. With that loose connection to the starter, don't rule out the possibility you had corrosion wick itself up into the cable where you can't see it. As weird as it sounds, cables to get resistance build up when the corrosion is sucked into the core of the cable. As soon as you get one thing resolved, the next weak link will reveal itself. But it does sound like you are very close. Let me know what you discover. Pics too if you find the smoking gun. Connections and cables will cause all kind of stupid issues.

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Hey k-bo - I have not seen that code thrown previously. But it is one that shouldn't be too major to deal with. That is a code for when the ECM doesn't' sense the "stay alive" voltage to keep the non-volatile memory banked. If you lose power to the ECM. "Usually" a bad battery can cause that effect. A bad cell is most often the reason. While you may be able to hold a charge to get it running, when it sits for some time the voltage may fallout of parameters to keep the non-volatile memory safe. Meaning, when you do get it running again it would have to relearn the engine mapping. Not a big deal in the larger scheme of things but it does affect performance. Here are some things to think about and consider....just some suggestions. Hard to troubleshoot and diagnose without seeing the machine in-person. But based on what you are describing, if I was chasing this rabbit, the first thing I would do is clear the code and see if it comes back. If you changed out the ignition switch and had the battery disconnected, that could throw that exact code. Second I would have the battery checked. The faulty ignition switch may have led to a shorted cell inside the battery. With out testing, no way to know for sure. If you've already done that, and/or replaced the battery, then I would check the battery connections...especially for loose ground. And I'd check the other grounds. It could have also caused a hot fault at a ground. I've seen situations on Kawasaki ATVs where a bad ignition switch that never fully opens when turned off lets some stray voltage drain. It's kind of like the machine is half on and half off at the same time. This is more voltage than the stay alive voltage to the ECM. The ECM always receives a trickle of power when the machine is off. But a bigger drain somewhere else in the wires can cause the ECM voltage to appear weak. Electricity likes to take the path of least resistance. If it can flow somewhere else, it will. It can happen on any ATV or side-by-side. Sometimes a voltage drain, even if very small, can eventually lead to a ground fault. You can spend hours or days trying to figure out what is causing a ghost problem. Good news is, you might notice a bad ground by the wires having shrunken insulation on the ends where connections are made. You should check for wires that are running close to the frame for chaffing rubbing, melting, or otherwise exposed and touching metal. What you won't see is corrosion where the connections meet the frame and galvanic corrosion has accelerated due to the existence of electrolyte from current flow that hasn't shut off. Sounds weird but I have actually seen it. Easy fix is removing the battery ground-to-frame connector and cleaning where they makes contact...then reconnecting. You may also have a situation where the charging circuit has a bad ground. Meaning, the voltage regulator is a possible culprit just as you suggest. But, I would not start throwing parts at it before checking the easy/cheap stuff first. I would do these things first in order of simplicity: 1) Reset the code and see if it comes back. See how long it takes. Is it immediate? Is it after sitting a few days? These are clues you can use to further troubleshoot. The machine will tell you if its sick. 2) Take battery to advance auto and have them check for bad cells. They do this for free. 3) If battery is good, spend some time checking grounds and loose connections. This also doesn't cost anything but time. You may want to check the wire from the ignition switch to the ECM to make sure it is giving correct power when on. If you're getting anything less than fully battery power output when the switch is on, you will need to figure out why (bad wire, another bad switch, etc.). I have seen replacement switched bad out of the box. If that checks out, check the ECM ground. With a multimeter connected to the circuit (Ohms and no power) you can wiggle wires to see if you lose the ground. One fast trick you can do is remove the ECM plug and reinstall it...then reset codes and check to see if it throws a code again. That is a very easy and fast check out. Sometimes connectors that aren't making solid connections will cause cause weird power faults. 4) If battery and connections seem to be okay, see if you can find a voltage regulator cheap on ebay or amazon. They are usually easy to find. But this starts to cost money, so I typically avoid parts until I have completely removed all other possibilities from the situation. 5) If all of the above fails, then you may have toasted a circuit in the ECM. This would be a last resort. If the machine runs with no other issues, I highly doubt the ECM is bad. But...that doesn't mean it is an absolute. It is actually pretty rare and I would think highly unlikely. Buying an ECM on a suspicion is never a good practice. Better to isolate all of the other low hanging fruit first. But weird things happen when wires short out. A bad switch can have evil consequences. Anyway, let me know what you find out. This one interests me much. Not a common problem. I'd like to know what you find. If you do some testing and post some updates of what you find, that would help in trying to narrow this down. - JT

What was the fix to get it running again?

Notice the IAT is an input. It is needed before your ECU will run properly. If it is open, there is a chance it may not run at all. Best to start looking at that sensor (test it) before looking elsewhere with an 0113 code in my opinion. Don’t throw parts at it in an attempt to troubleshoot. Go for easy stuff first. Codes are important. Effectively, if you don’t have the correct inputs for this ECU, it won’t give you the correct outputs - meaning no signal to fire the coil for spark or no signal for the fuel pump to turn on. It’s the way the system is designed. It’s somewhat rudimentary but meant to save your engine from grenading.

P.S. why would you jump right to crank position sensor? I would not do that as a first step in troubleshooting your problem. Especially if you have a code thrown for IAT. That is a primary input for these dumb MTU-05 ECUs to operate.

Code 0113 is typically IAT (inlet air temp) circuit high or open. It’s one of the inputs the ECM needs to operate properly. Have you tried rebooting the ECM? The procedures are pinned on the massing page.

Circling back on this out of curiosity... Did the oil change fix the CEL in H gear? Or did you find something else?

Hey Everyone - I received the new VAG/KKL USB connector that "TMod" recommended. Ordered from Amazon. $10. Also downloaded the free HUD ECU Hacker program. Connected everything up using the adapter plug I previously made for $20 (sources posted in first fault code troubleshooting post) and ran the software. I am thoroughly amazed at the results. The stuff actually works! Better than expected I might add. I was able to see more data and info about the Buck than I ever thought possible. The fact that I can see what is happening while it is running is a very significant tool to have and very important to me when troubleshooting. An OBD reader can't hold water to the amount of data you will get using this procedure. I've uploaded four videos of my experience to a YouTube page where they can be seen. I tried to upload them to the forum but could not get them to play correctly. Hope this info helps some of you if you're riding the fence about trying it. I still have a lot of analysis to do on my results. I ran a log file and trace to see the parameters of the sensor outputs. There is a ton of data to sift through. But I am very impressed at what this software can do for the Buck. To me it was incredibly worth the $10 for the USB cable and the $20 for the OBD connector and adapter plug. Best $30 I've spent in a long time. Here is the link. Hopefully I figured out how to make them public. Let me know if it doesn't work. They are in order 1-4. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSPgFjy3k2f4zKL4D927l2zyN7Kug2XF2 - JT

Sounds great. My USB cable arrives today. I downloaded the software. I’m giving it a go once I get the cable. I’ll post my results so others can see.

There is a lot of great info also being passed around on this FB page of anyone is interested. This is where I found the post for the real-time software and reader. https://www.facebook.com/groups/187829158450490/?ref=share

Team, this guy posted some great info on a FB forum I am in for Massimos. He offers softeare and “how to” for looking at real time data from the ECU. I get no $ from it, not endorsing it, just passing it along in case someone else is as curious as I am. I looked it over and it seems legit. He has the pin outs correct and the software does look promising. The cable I built for myself is very similar to one he shows. Might be worth a look to try and find ways to troubleshoot these machine better. (Link edited - Previous link was bad - This one should work) https://www.norwestsuspension.com/delphi-mt-05-diagnostics-readerrecorder

Where did you find that information? The label on my buck specifically states 87 octane. See bottom left of pic. It is also a 390.8 cc Top left

Not that I’ve been able to find. I’ve looked for Massimo, Bennche, Cazador, Linhai, etc. since they are all the same with different badges. Does not seem to be any aftermarket info out there yet. We are on our own! If you find something, I’m sure everyone would be interested.

Agree. It’s not worth the paper it’s printed on. It’s about as useful as the owners manual. I wasted $75 plus shipping and wish I could get a refund.

Check this link out. It does a better job explaining what I was trying to convey with the CVT and high gear versus low gear in a UTV. https://www.standard.net/lifestyle/recreation/atv-adventures-choosing-the-right-gear-range-is-important-on-the-trail/article_389a114b-488b-55b9-a6ce-80b3b5788563.html

LoL. Sorry. 1/4 inch drive. Typo. Wife was driving. I left my readers at home. 1/2 drive would be perfect.

Based on what you experienced, my money is still on the belt (90%) or perhaps the clutch (10%). Do a Google search for CVT theory of operation. It will explain the difference between operating in high versus low. There are some great articles about Polaris CVT. The theory is pretty much the same. Do that oil change very soon. It’s needed. But after you do, try running it up and down hills again in both high and low gear. I’d put a 6-pack on it that it still throws the CEL in high gear. Final thought. If it’s working in low, ride it and enjoy it. But sooner or later you’ll probably need a new belt. My hunch is when in high gear going down a hill, if the belt has stretched some, due to constant riding in high, there’s probably not enough tension on the primary and secondary clutch assemblies to keep them in sync thus causing driveline slip. Which is probably causing the crank position sensor to see the slip difference/ratio from engine output compared to the wheel rotations. This would throw your check engine light. When you put it in low, some tension stays on the driveline as you go down hill and your crank position sensor is probably not seeing any slippage. Again, just a hunch. But the results of your “experiment” are leaning me in that direction. You will be able to rule out the oil sump situation if you change it and it still throws the CEL afterwards in high going down hill. Good news is, you are zeroing in on the culprit and we all learned something. This has been a very interesting thread.

19mm socket, 3/4 inch drive ratchet, 6 inch extension. Comes right out.... Once you break it loose, put one of those deep funnels under it through the hole in the plastic skid plate, then reach in from the driver's side and turn the nut until is falls out and into the funnel. The screen will drop out with it, Once the oil is drained, drop your funnel and pull out the screen and plug. Check for debris in the screen. Then clean everything off with paper towels. Reinstall. Take your dipstick out, unscrew the tube, then use a smaller funnel with a tip that goes into the hole. Add 1.25 quarts of 10W40 UTV oil made for a wet clutch. Reinstall tube and dipstick. Check oil level, Boom! Done. Be sure to check the oil level after you run it to make sure it didn't drop any. And check for leaks at the plug and dipstick too to make sure you got it closed back up right. Then hit the trails....