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[Kinarfi]

That's great, we need comparisons.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

Yea, but I expected that you had weighed your vehicle and was hoping you would answer the weight question.

Kinarfi

[rocmoc]

Posted on: Jan 2 2009, 06:53 PM

Advanced Member - Flatbed

***

Ok, i finally got the weights on the trooper T 2, seems like i have my own little post going here, Hope i am not offending anyone. Anyway i weighed each axle buy them selfs. front axle first, then the back. I had seprate scales.

left front 380lbs right front 380lbs

left rear 480lbs right rear 520lbs

Total weight 1,760

From a post by Flatbed Jan.2, 09

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Kinarfi]

Thanks rocmoc, think I'll stick it in parts pieces and info

Kinarfi

[Guest Lenny]

Kinarfi, I suspect you will be getting your shocks shortly. There are a couple of things that may help you when you decide to further tune them. Flatbed, Rocmoc or anyone else for that matter may correct me if I have something wrong. The tender spring which will be on top is the softer spring and primarily for the first part of used suspension. It allows you to take the small bumps and give a softer ride for gerneal riding. The adjustment ring that sets inside the tender spring limits it's useable compression. At some point you want the main spring to take over and handle the bigger hits. The adjustment at the top of the shock sets the starting value or initial softness or stiffness of the tender spring. You propably already know that the rate marked on the spring is the force at which it pushes or weight it will support per 1" of compression. Thus your 400# spring will hold 400# at 1" compression, 800# at 2", etc. The main spring compresses at the same time the tender does but compresses less because of it's higher rate. So, if you compress your tender 3" or to 1200#, your 600# springs will compress 2" under the 1200# load giving a total of 5" of shock travel. Of coarse based on the geometry, the wheel travels more. You want the tender spring to give you enough soft start to handle your general riding but at some point, if the tender is used for too much of the travel, when you turn hard, your Trooper will lean more then you like. At some point you want your tender to hit it's limiting ring and have the main spring do all the work and not only take the bigger hits but catch or limit the lean before it gets too excessive.

As far as dampening tuning goes, it plays right along with the springs. Dampening slows the extension or contraction of the shock. The faster the shock shaft moves the greater effect the dampening plays. On bump conditions, when you hit a bump fast, the dampening further resist shock compression which adds to the springs resistance to provide an overall stiffer reaction. If you for example drive over a 1 foot high hump at a slow speed, the dampening will have much less influence then if you were to hit a 1 foot high hump at 30 MPH. When it comes to rebound dampening, the stiffer the springs, the more rebound dampening you will need to prevent the spring from pushing the Trooper back up so hard that it overshoots its normal riding heigth. Thus you sort of bounce up and down after a larger hit. If the rebound dampening is too much then the Trooper won't return back to it's normal riding heigth soon enough to be ready for the next bump. Each successive bump then has less travel available to absorb the hit. This is called packing the shock. If your bottoming your suspension, there are two ways to fix it, actually three. You can increase your compression dampening which will also somewhat increase the feel of stiffness in the tender spring and your initial ride won't be as soft. You can go to a higher rate main spring instead of more dampening or a combination of both. If your bottoming only occasionally you can add bump stops which catch the very last part of the suspension travel to cushion it. These can be put on the shock shaft at the bottom or they can be seperately mounted elsewhere. Bump stops are always good to absorb the rare excessive bottoming hits to prevent damage or shock breakage.

As you can see, the same idenical shock setup will vary depending on your riding style.

Hope this helps. Then again you probably already knew all this but maybe some others don't.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

Thanks Lenny,

For the rest, I ordered F.O.A. shocks with a 10" travel and 26.3" fully extended with 400 over 600 springs, anticipate putting limiting straps on. I see where most of the limit straps have been around the shock and even use the same bolts, I plan to wrap my strap around the tube where the plunger that hold the rear deck up is attached and at the very back of the swing arm, it ends up having about the same angle as the shock/springs and has no leverage disadvantages so I can use a lighter strap and run it down and back up.

When I get them, I'll post photos of it all.

Kinarfi

[Kinarfi]

This is the one I will be installing, SOMEDAY!

http://offroadwarehouse.com/products/sfID1...8/productID/112

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

While I was looking at the link, it had 4 items below for the shock, how many of those items are needed?

Thanks

Kinarfi

[Guest Lenny]

While I was looking at the link, it had 4 items below for the shock, how many of those items are needed?

Thanks

Kinarfi

If you got the shocks and 2 springs for each all from FOA, then I have to beleive you will have everything you need.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

If you got the shocks and 2 springs for each all from FOA, then I have to beleive you will have everything you need.

Lenny

Yea, I'm sure I'll get all I need, I was just comparing prices. Mine were $685.30 with shipping, for both.

[Guest Lenny]

I have had a number of people ask about how I set up my shocks. I went ahead and did some measurments and did a drawing which is attached. This is for my rear setup only. It's not my intent that others copy my setup but you can if you choose. I go from loaded for survival with extra water, food, weather gear, 10 gal extra gas etc. along with my wife and 2 80# dogs to riding alone more in a race type mode. This can be a 500# - 600# variation in weight. I find that I can handle the heavier load quite well and even ride a little aggressive in the rough stuff and the suspension behavies well and rarely bottoms. Wheels stay on the ground and the control is good. This says sosmething for the Trooper and the suspension setup as about 250# of this weight is on my roof and yet it doesn't feel tippy. When I ride alone, it is a little stiffer and can take running off a 3 foot dropoff at about 15 MPH without bottoming. I have a very rough 200 foot long downhill section that I use as a test spot. The variations are up to about 12" deep being almost like potholes is spots and sort of undulating in other spots. The slope is about 15 to 20 degrees. About 2/3 of the way down a slight S turn is required. I have run this slope so far up to 35 MPH. The Trooper stays very stable and levels off the variations nicely. The wheels seem to always stay on the ground and I don't detect any floating one direction or the other even in the slight S turn. My dampening is, if what I wrote down was my last change, 50 on compression and 70 on rebound and I have 14-1/2" of travel. The drawing reference is based on the Trooper settng with the bar that is next to your leg just above the rocker panel being level.

That said, I first want to again thank Flatbed for his invalueable help guiding me to better understand suspension. However his setup is different and he is far far more knowledgeable then I about suspension. I hope he forgives me for saying this, but, he placed 2nd overall in the Baja 1000 and that deserves a tremendious amount of respect. He could very well drive my Trooper and tell me that it could be a lot better and I would listen. I strongly sujest that if your going to make dramatic changes to your suspension you do diligent research on your own first. Flatbed, if your reading this, feel free to counter anything I have done. It is more then welcome. I don't want to lead anyone down the wrong road.

, , ,

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

Went camping and for a nice little ride with my sons and grand kid over the weekend, my new shocks were not here yet, so I pumped some ATF into the bad one and promptly pumped it all out and had no shock at all, so fairly often, bad bumps caused it to slam home, eventually, I dropped the CV again.

So Do NOT ride on blown shocks!!!!

This is the second time a blown shock has caused my CV to drop.

However, I did have a good time riding right up to that point, and still had a great time with the family being out in the forest & in the mountains. Here's a Spot link to where I camped. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&...p;z=12&om=1

[rocmoc]

There is a GREAT resort near where you were, Homestead Golf Resort, http://www.homesteadresort.com . They have an incredible Hot Spring that is inside a huge natural rock Honeycomb, http://www.utahdiving.com/crater.htm . A must for one's bucket list.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Kinarfi]

There is a GREAT resort near where you were, Homestead Golf Resort, http://www.homesteadresort.com . They have an incredible Hot Spring that is inside a huge natural rock Honeycomb, http://www.utahdiving.com/crater.htm . A must for one's bucket list.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

Myself, I don't play golf, but I have driven past that course several times and it is a beautiful place. If you travel north from there, you end up near Park City and Guardsman Pass, beautiful drive. Next time I get in that area, I'll have to at least drive by the dome. Flew past that area a few times but never noticed the dome, but did take photos of another mound that you can drive in circles to the top. Lots of scenery in this area, Maybe we could have the next Jamboree up here, that would be cool. Mostly scenery driving, but I you wanted to torture you rig, I'm sure there are places for it, like AF canyons Mineral Basin Road. 40 33 01 N 111 36 21 W

Kinarfi

[rocmoc]

We went there for the Dome, it is one of a kind. There is a hole in the side where you enter and slowly walk down to a lower level . Then it is a huge 65 foot deep hot spring with a dock. They give you a lifejacket, jump in, float & soak. It is not free and I don't remember how much but it was worth it. They also conduct scuba classes year-around.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Kinarfi]

Door bell rang today, It was UPS delivering my shocks, yay!!! As soon as my show is over, I'll go put them on and take photos to add as an edit.

Edit time, Got most of it done and it only took about 5 hours and I got done in no small part, Thanks to my Wife Linda, Stayed by my side through it all.

Had to pop the CVs off of the differential to get the swing arm to drop down far enough, had enough travel to be able to put the springs on with travel left over. Had to grind about a 1/16 inch off each eye spacer,--- greased a 1/2" drill bit shank and slid it on and held it from sliding down with one of the spacers and held it against the grind stone in such a way that it spun and ground down evenly. The spacers slide through the bracket holes and the eye spacers keep everything between the brackets which are not squeezed together. You'll see, look at the photos,

Many of them are captioned, so start with this one and read the captions.

Thanks

Kinarfi

oh yea, the slide show works well too.

A quick question, which springs goes on top, heavy or light, It looks like I may have put mine on wrong after looking at the photos and looking at the stop.

[rocmoc]

Kooool, at least you are better about getting the pics up than I am.

It's really tough to stop working just to take a photo, isn't it? Edit by kinarfi

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Kinarfi]

Posted, move up two ;, did an edit on previous post.

[Kinarfi]

Got it all together and tires on and off the jack and MAN! was the rear end low, no preload. So, jack it up, drop the CVs, drop the limit straps, drop the swing arm, pull the lower mounting bolts, move the 400s to the top and 600s to the bottom, run the preload screws down to about 2 1/2 inches from the top, which, with the shocks extended, it only took up the slack. Preload compression came just letting it sit approximately level, and with the preload, my wimpy webbing won't hold the limits, so I'm going to use a heavier, stiffer strapping, at least it's blue like the springs. Sure is a lot easier the second time. Short ride on pavement and hunting potholes to hit, felt pretty good. Still need a test run.

Kinarfi

In case you missed the photos earlier, start with this one

[rocmoc]

Lenny, Flatbed & others who may know,

I have installed the new lower shock mount directly above the forward caliper and on the elbow of the swing arm going out to the wheel. The upper remains the original mount. The angle of the old shock was approx. 27-28 degree at rest with wheels on and sitting on the floor. My new location places the shock at approx. 38-39 degrees. What do you think? What this does is allow me to install the 10" fox shock, http://offroadwarehouse.com/products/sfID1...8/productID/113 The extension & compression measurements are nearly perfect. I think the springs will have to be a little heavier/stronger. Yes I took pics! Yea, that's what you say, but when you gonna get them posted??? We're all dying to see them. Hurry UP, Please. NEED Help???

<<<<<<<< CLICK THERE<<<<<<

Kinarf,

Keep us in the loop as I am only 88.8% sure I am going with Fox.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Guest Lenny]

Rocmoc, sounds like you are not too far away from what I have, see my eariler post in this thread. In my case, the shock being farther out on the swing arm gives the spring more leverage but the increase in it's angle comes out to pretty much totally canceling out the leverage gain. My springs didn't need changing when I moved to this geometry. I then cut a fair amount of weight off and now I'm alittle too stiff when I ride alone or just with my wife, no dogs, survival gear, extra gas and water, etc. I'm going to lessen my compression dampening for starters. If that doesn't give it too me, I may have to go to a lighter spring(s). I'm hopping around a little in the rougher stuff. It didn't do that before I put it on a diet.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

I'm not sure this belongs here or reasons for Limit Straps, here! My new shocks and wimpy limit strap did this!!!!

If you get too much travel downward, it pulls your CVs apart and you no longer move. I put mine back together on the trail and tightened up my limit strap and it was either to weak or got melted by the exhaust, but it let go and overextended the swing arm and pulled it apart again.

Linda had to go get the truck and trailer to rescue me and the Trooper. At least I had some good scenery while I waited.

Should have taken some photos during the ride, I live at the base of a beautiful mountain so I have beautiful places to go.

Kinarfi

and of course, a post script, Spot Returned this;

http://share.findmespot.com/shared/faces/v...dK3tDviJ17FEDOq

[rocmoc]

Kinarfi, Yes this has been a concern of mine and have even thought of using steel chain as they do in NASCAR.

Linny, I tried to find the pic of the mount & stop but have not been sucessful. I did see a limpse in one pic of the side of the mount. I remember seeing them but can't find them again. I must have spent an hour last night looking for them.

I am working with Kinarfi about getting the pics up.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Guest Lenny]

There is something that seems wrong. Don't know what it is but, my CV's don't pull out and never did nor have I heard Flatbed say his pulled out. MY swing arm will go high enough so the axel hits the the swing arm frame and the same when it's all the way down. Flatbed even releived his swing arm frame to allow even a little more swing. In other works, I can't move mine far enough to pull the CV out. I'm sure our axels are the same length but maybe check length when out. If everybody checks length when out and post it, we will know after a bit if they are the same. That leaves one thing left, the distance from the CV bell on the diff to wheel hub. I measured mine and with the axel running down, as it goes from the diff to the hub, 14-1/2 degrees the distance from the outside edge of the bell plus probably about 1/8" of boot rubber to the outside edge of the brake disc is 17-1/2". If for some reason, the swing arm is out a little from that, It could do it. With Joyners manufacturing variances, this is possible. This would also be fairly easy to fix if your reworking the main pivot points like I did. They need to be redone at some point anyway.

Rocmoc, the pics your looking for are here:

, , ,

Lenny

[rocmoc]

The axles were longer on the earlier built units. In fact the very first ones were too long and they would bind in the nuteral position. On the first units the axles were removed and shorten after delivery. They shorten the axles at least once at the factory but they could have more than once and went too far on some unit. I have one of the units with the first of the shorten axles from the factory or maybe shorten at USA assembly site.

Lenny, YUP that is right where I put the mount. Only diff is I did not raise the mount to allow for the use of the 8" shock. I am mounted about 1/2" above the swing arm to allow for the same shock that Flatbed used. That will allow me to use his experience in spring & valve selection.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Guest Lenny]

I'm using 10" shocks and I use about 9-3/4" of the stroke. My top mount is mover forward otherwise I would have to use 8" shocks. Keep in mind that you can compensate for short or long axels easily if you redo the swing arm swing points. I think flatbed is using 8" fox shocks.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

Flatbed is running 10". He lowered the diff allowing for the extra length.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Guest Lenny]

Flatbed is running 10". He lowered the diff allowing for the extra length.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

My rear diff is lowered too. You can't get the 14-1/2" of travel without lowering it.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

I think we are talking about different things. 10" of travel.

http://offroadwarehouse.com/products/sfID1...7/productID/103

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Guest Lenny]

I think we are talking about different things. 10" of travel.

http://offroadwarehouse.com/products/sfID1...7/productID/103

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

Flatbed has 14-1/2" of wheel travel front and rear just as I do. I'm sure of this.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

"Just came in from my shop, the stock shocks have 4 1/2 of stroke, the new fox's have 8 1/2. I have to ad a limit spacer around the shaft to knock it down to 7 1/2 " of stroke. I have ended up with 14 " of travel in the back. the trailing arm needs to be dimpiled and the weld smothed when you are in full compresion to keep from rubbing the axle. Like i said before i have 300 over 600s in the back. I could not resit, i baught another set of shocks for the front to day. I am going to run 300 over 400s on the front. Shocks are around $200 apiece, I got one set for 189 apiece and the other set today for 175. Springs are around $75 apiece and it is two per shock. You could probably get 15" of travel, i just don't want to push my luck pulling the axle out. Don,t forget i have lowered the back diff so it is leting the wheels drop futher with out binding the cv's"

Flatbed's post above. The 14" is swing arm travel. He used the Fox 2.0 with 8 1/2" of travel. I will have to install bump stops & limit straps on the Fox 2.0 with 10" of travel.

What am I missing? I am talking about shock travel. I will keep the actual travel of the swing arm pretty much the same, I just want the better damping!

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[Kinarfi]

Third time is the charm I hope, start with this foto and look a 8 of them, I backed off the preload, and put a much tougher limiting strap on with better clamps, Set the distance to 26 1/2 from the bracket to the top of the 2x2. Any more and things got tight. Letting it hang on the straps over night to see if they stretch or slip.

The CV came apart, a couple of times, and by the time I got it into the garage, the bell had been damaged, I had an extra from when they warranted the axle because the outer CV came apart 3 times and the last time it lost one of the balls. They let me keep the axle and inner CV, so I put that one on this axle and all seems well.

Kinarfi