trying to finish assembly "new" 2021 Coleman ut 400

[buckrub]

Hey guys! Newbie here. I'm an old man who's better with plowing a mule (4-legged kind) than these newfangled beasts. I, and a friend of mine, just bought new Coleman sxs and are having to finish the assembly. I've been reading on this site and I'm falling on the mercy of you experts. The only way I'm an expert is that an "ex" is a has been, and a spurt is a drip under pressure. LOL First off, the 2 buggies have no ignition switches. They seem to mount on the dash, not the opening in the steering wheel shaft cover, so we ordered new ones that are supposed to fit. They are 8 inches long, and have a 4-wired white plugin which is slightly rectangled when looking at the end of the plug. The trouble is there's nothing to plug into. There is a three-wire grey plug close enough to reach the four-wire plug, but of course, they are not compatible. 

Secondly, the blinker, light, ect. unit on steering wheel just spins around when touched. I see no way in heaven or earth to secure it. I've looked at a diagram on the Powersports site, but can't detect how it mounted. Fellows I'd be so grateful for any help with this. Me and my mule will even plow your garden for free, for your help. LOL 

 

[buckrub]

Say, would any of you, please, mind looking on your Coleman ut 400s and just see where your ignition switch hooks up. It really would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. 

[aefron88]

The UT400-5 (the fuel injected version that was being manufactured something like 2018-today) the key is on the right side of the steering column simular to most cars.

There is a vestigial hole where the key used to mount in the dash in the 400-4 (carbed model)

As far as the stalk not sure what you're asking? Normally all this comes installed from the factory. Here is a pic of how it normally looks fresh out of the crate. Just have to bolt on the cage/roof/steeringwheel/backrest/sidemirrors.

Go to the downloads section of this site, under chisun" you'll find the HS-400 factory service manual. The body chapter may have steering column info you need. There is also a good wiring diagram (last page) that shows pictures if each plug and pinouts so you can match what you're looking for re:ignition switch.

[buckrub]

Hey man, many many thanks for your time and effort in helping. I suppose they sent me the wrong switch because with it mounted at the steering column it would have to be longer than the 8 inch one they sent me. That probably means the three-wire grey plug (under the hood) I mentioned in above post is the correct plug for the ignition switch. I've been pulling my hair out over this thing. Thanks again.

[aefron88]

you can check the wiring diagram to verify the dash plug (last page of the previously linked manual) it has good pictures of the shape/pinouts of each plug.

Some parts vendors have out of date parts diagrams from previous models, so likely thats how you ended up witht he wrong keyswitch. you'll even find there are some references to the carbed model in some of the current user and service manual.

[buckrub]

Thanks again, man. Yes, I went to the site and spent some quality time there. I then went to a sells site and found out there are two different switches with the same part number. I think the one I need will not only give me ignition, but it clamps to the steering column and I believe the blinker system bolts to it--solving both of my problems. I have it on order now. Like yours, it mounts on the dash. 

[Rainman]

Not sure what year your machines are, but mine is a 2021 UT400 and I had to replace the ignition switch. I bought mine on eBay and it took me a while to match up the exact design, as there are many switches out there, whereas the design seems to change in different years.

One note is, the bolts that came with the new one I purchased were too short, so I had to use the old bolts to attach the switch to the column. I also had to solder the connector from the old switch onto the new switch, which was one of the main problems in finding an exact match. The switch, in my case, fit perfect, but I couldn't find one with the correct connector, but got it to work just fine, as long as the wiring was the same.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/374582547172

Hope this helps.

[buckrub]

Thanks Rainman! Mine is a 2021 also. I have ordered and received one from ebay. The wiring was correct, but I had to rig the clamp because it was too big. I bent a large heavy -duty washer to go between the clamp and steering column. For the connector, I had to attach the wires with a wire connector. For my friend's buggy I will order the one you posted to me in the link. Well, mine is turning over, but I have no spark to the spark plug. I'm not a good mechanic on these buggies. Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated. 

[aefron88]

Here's the "no spark" troubleshooting section from the service manual. The full manual are available in the download section under Hisun HS400 (Hisun branded version of the same SxS)

[buckrub]

Thanks Aefron, I'll check it out. 

[buckrub]

Well guys, I find myself in the same position of the Ethiopian eunuch of Acts chapter 8: I don't understandeth what I readeth.  LOL Concerning my buggy not firing, if I go online and google buggies (in general) not firing, will it be the same as mine: at least, as long as they are fired by a stator? As I confessed in my first comment I'm not much of a mechanic on these machines. In reality, mechanicing passed me by when they got away from points and condensers. With that statement one can quickly ascertain I'm no young whipper snapper. LOL  Thanks for any help.

[aefron88]

Ok so lets start off simple on the instructions I posted above. I'm assuming you have a Volt/Ohm meter, if not you'll need to get one. If you find something wrong in any of these steps rectify, and then try starting again.

Just so we're clear, how are you checking for spark and determining that you don't have one? Are you sure you have the key wired up correctly to the proper terminals?

 

-First check all the fuses. There is a fuse on the positive battery cable. The remaining fuses are inside the box forward of the battery under the seat. Remove the cover (4 Philips screws) and check each fuse for continuity.

-If those are all good, next step is check the battery. Should have 12.5V or more. If it doesn't charge it.

-Next step is to inspect the plug, make sure it is clean, not fouled, and gapped properly. If it's still in new condition, and not soaked in gas it's likely OK.

 

Let me know the answers to above, and confirm all those steps are complete with no resolution.

[buckrub]

Thanks for your help, Aefron. Sorry to keep you waiting, but I've been down with my old back. To answer your questions: yes, I do have a volt meter. I checked for spark by taking the plug wire off the plug, inserting a screwdriver into the wire, and holding it close to the aluminum on motor while cranking. I then pulled the plug, attached the plug wire, and grounded it while cranking. There was a spare plug in the buggie when I got it, so I swapped the plugs and tried again-- all to no avail. 

I'm quite sure the ignition switch is right, electrically, because the three wires were the same color as those on the loose wire I mentioned. The engine not only turns over, but the dash lights, blinkers, and the headlights all work with the key on. Thus, I believe it's the correct one. 

Now here's the mystery to me. These old eyeballs of mine could not find a fuse on the positive side of the battery cable, but since it's turning over, don't that tell me that fuse is ok? Concerning the fuse box, I only found one fuse blown. It was a 5A, so I assume it's for something of very low voltage. It's difficult for me to look down it there, but I think the blown 5A fuse is F4, whatever that means. The mystery continues for me in that I don't know if the larger, black, box-like objects in the fuse box are fuses that I'm unaware of. I searched feverishly online for a pic of the fuse box showing what is what, but failed to find one. I pulled on one, but it didn't come out, and I feared tearing something up by pulling harder. 

I had charged the battery before I started all of this, and I recharged it again--so it is still very hot. The plug looks new, and the one I found in the buggie doesn't. 

Man, I just want you to know your help is greatly appreciated. Knowing you have taken so much of your valuable time to help me get the buggie running is not overlooked. 

[aefron88]

No worries, i'm not sitting around waiting. I just enjoy solving mechanical puzzles.

F4 should be a 15 amp fuse and runs the fuel pump relay & dc jack. Without that you wont get fuel to start the engine. Replace that and see what happens.

When you turn the key to on (not start) you should hear the fuel pump kick on (slight hum under the passenger seat) for about 5 seconds before it builds pressure.

The little black boxes are relays, shouldnt need to touch those, and i'm not aware of any replacements aside from getting a new fuse box ($80ish bucks)

[buckrub]

It occurred to me today. My buddy's buggy came without a fuse box, so we had to order one, but it's not yet installed on his, so I took the cover off the new box and found I was mistaken. The bad fuse was a 5A marked F1. I bought a pack of assorted fuses, so I have a new one now. 

Although the F4 fuse was ok I listened for the fuel pump sound today, but the wind is blowing and I'm hard of hearing, so I couldn't detect the sound. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aefron88]

F1 fuse is a 5 amp and controls the ECU/dash display which would mean no spark. Dies it start (or at least have spark) with the f1 fuse replaced?

[buckrub]

No, still no spark after replacing the fuse, sorry.

[aefron88]

Ok next up step is #6 on the instruction pictures I posted above: Checking the ignition coil. The ignition coil you can find by following the spark plug lead. Test primnary and secondary as directed in the picture above step #6.

As far as step 8: Contrary to the manual I don't believe there's a magneto coil on these EFI units, the ignition coil is driven directly by the ECU. This step should be something like "verify crankshaft position sensor" but thats going to require an oscilloscope or HUD Ecu hacker & Cables & a PC. You can at least verify that the sensor is plugged in correctly. Plug is the wires coming out of the passenger side of the crankcase. Should be a 4 pin square plug (IE 2x2)

Let me know what you find and we can continue from there

[buckrub]

#6 Coil showed .5 and 6.98, so it seems to be bad. Concerning step 8 I could not find any connections wrong. Also, I tried a continuity test on the plug wire and there wasn't any. I found a coil and wire on Ebay for 30 bucks. At Coleman Powersports they were around 100 dollars. 

[aefron88]

Gotcha, well keep us updated when the new coil shows up

[buckrub]

I trust you're doing well. 

 

The new coil, coil wire, and plug came in yesterday. Just my luck, still there's no spark.  I guess I wasn't using the tester correctly.  I fear it may be one of the really expensive items. 

[aefron88]

Being that yours was unassembled and we've gone through the troubleshooting stuff it might be worth double checking everything is properly connected wire wise, and we didn't miss something stupid. I've never heard of an ECU failing on a brand new unit (not saying it isnt possible)

Just to confirm you have all the plugs in the bottom of the ECU & Fuse boxes properly plugged in, give them a push and make sure sometimes they don't get pushed in all the way and aren't connecting. Same with all the various sensor plugs on the engine, and the crank position sensor plug on the right side of the engine case.

You said it cranks properly, when you turn the key to on does the dash display come on? Is there someone else that could listen for the fuel pump with the seat out its fairly obvious if you're in a quiet area?

[buckrub]

Yes, when I bought the buggy it was missing some of the parts. I had to order them and put them on. The dash display does come on, but it  seems a bit odd though. It's showing 22 hours on it. I just went through all the connections on the buggy, and they appear well connected. 

I have since listened to it while the wind wasn't blowing, and I can hear the fuel pump working. 

Do you suppose it could be the stator?

[aefron88]

Not the stator, these get spark electronically controlled by the ECU. On the stator side there is a crankshaft position sensor that signals the ECU where TDC is, and that's how the ECU knows when to spark.

It's possible that's either unplugged or failed. There's not a good way to test it without an oscilloscope.

I would be reluctant to keep throwing parts at it just guessing too, but assuming all fuses are still good, and everything else is plugged in with no broken wires, we're down to crankshaft position sensor and ECU causing a no spark.

[buckrub]

At this point I'm guessing I should try to find someone with this equipment to work on it. If that's what you're thinking then I just want to express my sincere thanks for you're help. 

 

PS: Yesterday I swapped the ECU from my buddy's buggy over on mine. No spark resulted. 

Edited May 18 by buckrub
I added something new I tried to the sxs.

[aefron88]

Yep. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Probably something stupid we're missing, but hard to guess.

You could try swapping your fuse box and ecu to your buddies rig and see if it starts. I would bet something else got disconnected, or it's possible you just have a bad crank position sensor, but like I said troubleshooting that is hard, without an oscilloscope. That would be my most likely guess, but I don't know that I would throw parts at it without being able to determine it was bad.