HELP, reringing my engine, and finding problems

[Kinarfi]

So far all I have been able to find is .7 ft/lbs, same as the torque setting for the oil pan bolts, is that correct?

jeff

[Kinarfi]

An additional use for you old timing belt, very handy, used it to hold the crank shaft from turning while I torqued the nut on the vibration dampener on the other end to 71 ft/lbs.

[Jarrad]

Nice setup for crank holder. And the torque all I could find is about same as you. But that is not enough. I cannot say off the top of my head what the "proper" torque is.

I never got an update after you started putting it back together. How did the ring endgap look with the new rings?

[Kinarfi]

Nice setup for crank holder. And the torque all I could find is about same as you. But that is not enough. I cannot say off the top of my head what the "proper" torque is.

I never got an update after you started putting it back together. How did the ring endgap look with the new rings?

.020"

guess I'll just go with standard torque values 6 ft/lb or 72 in/lb

Every thing seems to be going well, think I bent my dip stick tube bracket at the top, doesn't want to align with the hole and doesn't look exactly like some of the photos I took, I like that method of photoing every thing before you tear it apart, beats the crap out memories, especially in old folk

Jeff

[joynergarth]

.020"

guess I'll just go with standard torque values 6 ft/lb or 72 in/lb

Every thing seems to be going well, think I bent my dip stick tube bracket at the top, doesn't want to align with the hole and doesn't look exactly like some of the photos I took, I like that method of photoing every thing before you tear it apart, beats the crap out memories, especially in old folk

Jeff

According to Kris, 5 ft lbs would do it.

Thanks.

[rocmoc]

According to Kris, 5 ft lbs would do it.

Thanks.

Looks like Garth is going to be a good addition to Jarrad & Silverbullet.

[Kinarfi]

Well I got the motor in and bolted to the tranny and the motor mounts tied to the engine but not the frame yet. I put the starter on and spun the engine using the battery in my truck so I could do a compression test, oooh ick yuck, 0 across the board, so I put some oil in on top and got a little better results 20, 50, 0, 0, from the back to the front so off with the valve cover and start checking clearances, first thing I noticed was that the oil was wiped off the cam all the way around on the intakes and the exhaust seems OK for most of them. Now I wonder if that is where my problem was all along, that the low compression was for because of the lack of clearance, but the rings obviously needed replacing. Guess I'll be adjusting valves tomorrow.

Jeff

[Guest Lenny]

Well I got the motor in and bolted to the tranny and the motor mounts tied to the engine but not the frame yet. I put the starter on and spun the engine using the battery in my truck so I could do a compression test, oooh ick yuck, 0 across the board, so I put some oil in on top and got a little better results 20, 50, 0, 0, from the back to the front so off with the valve cover and start checking clearances, first thing I noticed was that the oil was wiped off the cam all the way around on the intakes and the exhaust seems OK for most of them. Now I wonder if that is where my problem was all along, that the low compression was for because of the lack of clearance, but the rings obviously needed replacing. Guess I'll be adjusting valves tomorrow.

Jeff

You problby won't get a good compression reading until it is run a bit.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

The rings need to seat!

[Kinarfi]

I neglected to say that when I tried to measure the clearance, I couldn't even get a .003" feeler gauge under the intakes, I'm thinking that the intake valves aren't closing. The exhaust appeared to be OK, but I'll check 'em

[Mudslinger]

Hay guys

just did the same job on an 800cc eng. It had badly worn rings,the intake valves were all tight and the exaust were all loose. had to ajust them all. thank goodness i had spare parts. ended up with 150psi on all cyls, and it runs like new.

The cause of all of this was the very poor quality original air filter. Make sure you have a good filter. The amount of dirt inside this eng was crazy.

[Kinarfi]

Here's my problem, NOW, more to come later I'm sure, I have 8 tight intake valves that need adjusting and 0 spare adjusting washer to adjust with. First a question, am I correct, after finally getting one adjuster washer out, that there is only one adjusting washer in each bucket? I was thinking you had one thick one on top and then you added or removed thin ones to get the correct gap, WRONG. So to adjust you get a set of these shims so you can switch them out until you get it right, or do it like Lenny did and machine them down in steps until it's correct. Would it work to put the thinnest standard adjustment shim in and then cut your feeler gauges into small pieces and put under the thick stock one, that way, I can order 8 of the thin ones and then shim them up. Where can I order them? Think I want to cry.

Jeff

[rocmoc]

Kinarfi, they are called shims. My understanding is they are the same used on the Honda 4-stroke motorcycles. Read that somewhere a couple of years ago. Lenny had adjusted his so he is a good source plus the new guys!

[Kinarfi]

Kinarfi, they are called shims. My understanding is they are the same used on the Honda 4-stroke motorcycles. Read that somewhere a couple of years ago. Lenny had adjusted his so he is a good source plus the new guys!

I'll have to check with Honda and report, I called them adjusting washer because thats what them manual (Chinese) called them. On my way down to Honda in a few minutes with the one I have out to see what they have.

Jeff

Edited the post where I called the washers, now shims.

[Mudslinger]

Kinarfi, they are called shims. My understanding is they are the same used on the Honda 4-stroke motorcycles. Read that somewhere a couple of years ago. Lenny had adjusted his so he is a good source plus the new guys!

rocmoc is correct, a lot of street bikes use the same shims. you would be looking for 25mm shims. The problem i found is that the thickness increments from the bike shops were to big. I had just enough of the right shims that I needed after going threw 3 different heads. If you can figure out what shims you are going to need, i may be able to help.

don't pull all your hair out doing all the math. : : :wacko and make lots of notes. YOU well get threw it

[Guest Lenny]

Kinarfi, they are called shims. My understanding is they are the same used on the Honda 4-stroke motorcycles. Read that somewhere a couple of years ago. Lenny had adjusted his so he is a good source plus the new guys!

No there are not two shims for each valve. I believe the Honda CBR uses the same shims. I think it is the CBR or CRB, something like that. However I see no reason that a thin shim under the regular shim wouldn't work just fine. As long as the regular shim is deep enough into the bucket to guarantee it remains there. That said, the under shims would want to be very close to the OD size of the regular shims and round. You could buy an 8x10" sheet of shim stock from an industrial or machine supply company and cut shims out with a scissors. Like I said before, setting up the valves is the most complicated part of an engine rebuild. It's just not user friendly.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

Went down to Monarch Honda in Orem, Utah with the one SHIM that I had got out and showed it to them and they came out with a box that had a bout 20 spaces and most of them had shims of different sizes, most were thicker than what I need, but they had lots that may be what I need, They are $8.00 each, so I got 17 of them, the really neat thing is that when I take them back, they refund everything, and it works out to an exchange program, mine for their's, and I think their shims change more than Joyner's as you went from size to size, got a friend coming to help me, more report later

jeff

[Kinarfi]

more report, all the shims I got from Monarch had to go back, full refund, none of them were thin enough, I got one 230 / .0905 shim and put it in every position and measured the gap that was left. From rear to front/ 1 to 8 here's what I measured,

The 230 is 0.090 551 181 102 inch – 0.18mm/0.007inch

#1 - 2.30 +.009'' - .007'' = 2.35mm----------------- removed 2.62 shim

#2 - 2.30 + .011'' - .007'' = 2.40mm --------------- removed 2.62 shim

#3 - 2.30 + .010 - .007 = 2.376 ---------------- removed 2.58 shim

#4 - 2.30 + .011 - .007 = 2.40 -------------------- removed 2.58 shim

#5 - 2.30 + .007 - .007 = .230 ------------------ removed 2.58 shim

#6 - 2.30 + .009 - .007 = 2.35 ----------------- removed 2.62 shim

#7 - 2.30 + .0025 - .007 = 2.1857 --------------------- removed 2.46 shim

#8 - 2.30 + .006 - .007 = 2.2746 ---------------------- removed 2.54 shim

All the exhaust measurements were within specs.

So that's what I need, I can order them from Honda, I think, for $8.00 each, I would rather buy from forum members if any one has them.

I now really believe that the reason I had low compression on 3 & 4 was more because of the valves than the rings, but what would cause the valve clearance to change?

I think Honda said the motorcycles that use these shim was the 1100 CC and the 450 CC, the exact info is down stairs and I'll post it tomorrow.

Jeff

P.S. I used http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_common.htm to convert back and forth from inches to mm

[rocmoc]

I have a Honda CRF450 and the valves HAD to be adjusted at about 6 months after purchase. My diesel Ram's valves had to be adjusted at 60,000. Adjusting valves isn't unusual. Maybe the rest of us should be taking a look at ours? Jarrad, Silverbullet, Garth, Lenny & Flatbed, Do we need to be adjusting our valves at some set mileage in the life of out Trooper?

[Guest Lenny]

I have a Honda CRF450 and the valves HAD to be adjusted at about 6 months after purchase. My diesel Ram's valves had to be adjusted at 60,000. Adjusting valves isn't unusual. Maybe the rest of us should be taking a look at ours? Jarrad, Silverbullet, Garth, Lenny & Flatbed, Do we need to be adjusting our valves at some set mileage in the life of out Trooper?

My older Dodge Ram needed adjusting too but after about 100,000 miles it didn't need adjusting more then about every 100,000 miles. The valves are going to seat at first some but they they shouldn't be down to no clearance with the millage Kinarfi has on his engine, about 5500. I suspect that they were setup tight to begin with by the Chery engine people. I can see Joyner doing that but not Chery as they are rapidly moving towards a leading engine producer in the world. The valve clearances in everyones Joyners should be checked. There not the easiest to check, hard to get a feeler gage to some of them but it they run tight, it can easily damage the valves. Seeing as Kinarfis were tight at 5000 miles, I would check them every 5000 miles until you are confident they aren't changing so quickly. For newer machines, I would check them at 2500 miles.

Lenny

[silverbullet]

Hi Kinarfi

We have been rebuilding Joyners for a while and have found the Troopers low compression is due to worn valve guides and the seats they get sand blastered from the intake.Motor dose need rebuilding.But we due check the vales guides and due a valve job or at least lap the valves in.We have replaced lots of valve guides and intake valves so we dont have to adj the valves

I hope i dont get blastered .It just what we see

Silverbullet

[Kinarfi]

Hi Kinarfi

We have been rebuilding Joyners for a while and have found the Troopers low compression is due to worn valve guides and the seats they get sand blastered from the intake.Motor dose need rebuilding.But we due check the vales guides and due a valve job or at least lap the valves in.We have replaced lots of valve guides and intake valves so we dont have to adj the valves

I hope i dont get blastered .It just what we see

Silverbullet

Thanks for your help, both here and on the phone.

Jeff

[Kinarfi]

The Honda shims come out of CB450s and GL1100s, start at 2.30 and increase in increments of .05, where as Joyner shims start at 2.18 and increase in increments of .02 up to 2.80.

I hate it when people give me advice that I don't want to hear or do. Two different people advised me have the valves done while the engine was apart, but I didn't want to do that.

With all the intake shims out, I screwed my compression tester in and applied around 80 pound of air pressure to see how fast it bled down, I noticed that on some of the exhaust ports, I could feel air coming out, so I got a barbecue lighter to see how many it was happening on and it was happening on all of them and blowing the fire out on most. Guess I have to accept the advice and take it to a machine shop to have the valves done.

BUMMER BUT THANKS FOR THE ADVICE, IT GOT ME CHECKING TO SEE IF I COULD GET AWAY WITHOUT HAVING THE HEAD WORK OVER

Jeff

[Jarrad]

The Honda shims come out of CB450s and GL1100s, start at 2.30 and increase in increments of .05, where as Joyner shims start at 2.18 and increase in increments of .02 up to 2.80.

I hate it when people give me advice that I don't want to hear or do. Two different people advised me have the valves done while the engine was apart, but I didn't want to do that.

With all the intake shims out, I screwed my compression tester in and applied around 80 pound of air pressure to see how fast it bled down, I noticed that on some of the exhaust ports, I could feel air coming out, so I got a barbecue lighter to see how many it was happening on and it was happening on all of them and blowing the fire out on most. Guess I have to accept the advice and take it to a machine shop to have the valves done.

BUMMER BUT THANKS FOR THE ADVICE, IT GOT ME CHECKING TO SEE IF I COULD GET AWAY WITHOUT HAVING THE HEAD WORK OVER

Jeff

Jeff that really does suck, But when you do get it back togeter at least you won't have to worry about it again for awhile. A good quality air filter is the Key to a happy Joyner experience.

[Kinarfi]

Jeff that really does suck, But when you do get it back togeter at least you won't have to worry about it again for awhile. A good quality air filter is the Key to a happy Joyner experience.

That and a snorkel, IMHO

Jeff

[Kinarfi]

My head, oh my head, the Trooper head is at C & T Machine shop & I'm impressed by them, I need to replace the intake valves and all the stem seals because of wear and may do the exhaust also because I'm in there.

Learned something interesting at the machine shop, that you can adjust the clearance by taking a little of the valve stem.

Jeff

[Jarrad]

No limits has the valves and seals in stock

[Kinarfi]

Two things I learned at the machine shop that is doing my head that impressed me, because it was new to me, but old stuff to others, is how to see if your valves are leaking and that the smaller valves in the head give more torque rather than higher horse power. To see if your valve are leaking, lay the head with the intake or exhaust port up and fill them full of water and try to blow the valve dry, if it keeps getting wet, it's leaking. Old practice to others, new to me.

Jeff

[Kinarfi]

Got my head back from the shop and now I need to adjust the valves, the book says .18 +/- .05mm clearance for the intake and .25 +/- .05mm for the exhaust. That works out to .13 to .23mm intake and .20 to .30mm exhaust. Joyner shims go up in .02 steps but you can't get them, Honda shims go up in .05 steps and it works out that I can choose between 2 shims for each valve. My question is; is it better to choose the shim that gives my the tighter or the looser clearance? The way I see it, as things wear, the clearance will increase so I should use the tighter shim. What do you more experienced people say?

So gaskets, belt, rings around $130.00

valves around $120.00

valve job around $225.00

14 new shims from the internet at $3.30 each, about $55 with shipping

$530 so far and counting.

Any way, should I get the thicker/less clearance shim or the thinner/more clearance shim?

another thought on wear, as the valve seats and wears in, the gap gets less, as the valve stem and the bucket wear the gap gets more, stem and bucket should change quicker than valve seating in, I vote thicker/less clearance shim choice.

Thanks,

Jeff

[rocmoc]

IMHO, I would shoot for the middle of the range. If can't hit the middle then middle towards the thicker/less choice.