Joyner USA Inc

[brostar]

There’s no doubt about it, Joyner UTVs and Buggies right from the beginning have been good concepts. The Buggies have made it as one of the main Buggy brands Globally and the UTVs I feel will have the same success. roc’s right, there are a lot of very good UTV models out there currently and one I like is the RZR4. Now, those who go back a few years here and on the other forum already know how fond I am of RZRs and Polaris in general, NOT, but I do like the RZR4. A short wheel base, purpose built four seater is a great concept too. It can be used in stock form or turned into a very stable UTV racing machine. Oh but here is the thing, they and most the other brands are still powering their UTV’s with Motorbike engines.

This is where Joyner has got it right from the beginning. The Commando was the first out there to use a car engine and tranny and the Commando 4 seater was the first true 4 seater UTV (how many followed our lead there), the Renegades and Troopers were the first EFI DOHC engines and Joyner was the first to choose Chery. Others are starting to follow our lead as they did with the Commando four seater. John Deere's new Gator XUV 825i looks a bit like our Renegade with a JD theme, it’s engine is 812cc DOHC Chery (the same engine as the Joyner Renegade) and JD has billed this the best Gator ever. They would be right.

Why is an automotive style engine out of a car better than a ATV Quad style engine out of a Motorbike? A UTV is more of a car than a Bike for a start, the car engine and tranny is designed to drive four wheels to the Bikes one, the car engine & tranny is designed to haul larger loads than Bike engines & trannys. The result is the Bike engine & tranny is working overtime to do what it is asked whilst the car engine & tranny is doing what it is designed for and the Bike engines drivetrain is under incredible strain. The by-product of this is a shorter engine & tranny life for Motorbike based UTVs and much higher fuel consumption. Why don’t the big brands follow our lead with Automotive style engines like John Deere? Because they are all ATV or Motorbike manufactures and they want to sell and use their engines.

This is where Joyner can go that most other manufactures can’t and that’s one mother of an advantage. All Joyner needs is an evolution of it’s models to improve strength and part failure and I believe the 2011 Joyner UTVs are a big step in the right direction. The 2011 will not be as good as a 2012 and so on, this is part of the evolution all manufacture follow, so just as long as you understand, regardless of what I have said the 2011 Trooper wont be perfect, that’s an impossibility.

Cheers Mike.

[Guest Lenny]

Would like to see them come out with a Trooper with the Chery 1.9L diesel hooked to the Chery QR525MHA 6 speed manual transmission. About 45 more HP and nearly 4 times the torque. Of course, have 1st be a real low granny gear for rock crawling.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

Would like to see them come out with a Trooper with the Chery 1.9L diesel hooked to the Chery QR525MHA 6 speed manual transmission. About 45 more HP and nearly 4 times the torque. Of course, have 1st be a real low granny gear for rock crawling.

Lenny

IF they did Lenny's suggestion, I would be tempted to buy a new Trooper. BUT don't forget they new Trooper would have to be sized/have gear ratios matched to the larger 31" or 30" tires. If they didn't and we upgraded to the larger tires we lose the benefits of the really low granny gear.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[brostar]

Interesting enough, the 1.9 Chery engine has exactly the same measurements as the 1.0 Chery 634 x 698 x 687, it only weighs 63kg more, has double the rated power and has emission:Euro IV as opposed to the 1L emission standard of: Euro III.

Here's the thing though, I know the price of the 1.9L would be far more expensive than the 1L and could you call it a UTV if used in a Renegade or Trooper frame with that huge cc rating. Maybe a new classification like a UTV-R (Utility Task Vehicle-Road Legal) that is also road legal. Makes a lot of sense, sort of like a Jeep that is more for Off-road than On-road, but has all the legal requirements for Highway driving in all Countries, not just some States, to drive on the Highway to your favourite track and back home again. The extra price of the 1.9L Diesel engine would be offset by the fact that you could drive it on the road and would imagine any manufacture will sell plenty of units. Without legal Road use, the retail price may be too high to get a commercial enterprise going ahead.

That’s looking at it from a manufacturing point of view, the way I see it. There would be other costs like a new suspension setup, bigger wheels and tires, the tranny that mates up would be heavier and more expensive, plus all the extra road legal requirements like fixed doors and auto glass windshields or what ever they may be. That said I agree, what a vehicle it would be, but IMHO it would be far too expensive.

Cheers Mike.

[MauyThai1]

Silverbullet

Joyner is back and have made manny changes for the better.They have a hard road to get the whole thing together.But all the Troopers you know with the up grades will please every body.They will have parts when you need them.They will be faster & better to react if thear is a need. They should be up and running in 60 days or so.Parts first then cars.

This is the fact.I know all the guys that will be thear and they love thear Joyners to.

And when you want performance parts call me.

Cams are hear testing them out as we speak we came up with a new trick for even more low end toqure.Besides the cams!

What did you do to get more power. I will be ordering a fuel controller and a cam when the cams are ready, hope it is soon. Let me know. MauyThai1.

[plumber]

What did you do to get more power. I will be ordering a fuel controller and a cam when the cams are ready, hope it is soon. Let me know. MauyThai1.

The cams are ready look on silverbullet web page

[rocmoc]

The cams are ready look on silverbullet web page

OK GREAT! We need a guinea pig / tester, LOL! Someone who will do before and after data runs, dyno and/or timed runs. NOT just a subjective, It feels stronger. I want DATA before I tear my motor apart and spend bucks.

rocmoc n AZ

[Quig]

OK GREAT! We need a guinea pig / tester, LOL! Someone who will do before and after data runs, dyno and/or timed runs. NOT just a subjective, It feels stronger. I want DATA before I tear my motor apart and spend bucks.

rocmoc n AZ

Go for it,, then you can do all the testing,& dyno's you want,,,,,,,, I'm very happy with all the updates I've had done to mine....even if they just " Feel" better? lmao,,,Quig

[plumber]

I think you have to take your cams out then send them to silverbullet he will then have them grind and send them back to you.I wish silverbullet was closer so I could just take it there. I'm cover up with work it will be awhile before I can do this but one day.

[Guest Lenny]

Never fear, Lennys here. You didn't think with all the mods I have put on my Trooper I would skip the Cam upgrade did you? Talked with Rick at Silverbullet today and I'm getting his next set of cams. I put off the dyno tuning work that was scheduled for tomorrow near Las Vegas. Planned on taking it in as long as I was going there anyway for a trade show. I should get the cams in about a week or two and should have the dyno tuning with the new cams shortly after, Want it done for the Jamboree. I should have dyno print outs for torque and HP but it won't show the difference from a stock engine being that mine is ported, and port matched, changed compression ratio, supercharged, aftercooled, running a stand alone computer (Megasquirt) and after installed, aftermarket cams. But I have a good feel for the power I have now and should see a nice increase in low to midrange torque. This setup should make my setup killer in the sand dunes and power sliding the corners on the trails should be a riot. Like Rocmoc said the diff is always a concern but I don't plan on forcing it too much. Keep in mind that if the diff is going to tear up it will be when pulling hard in 1st gear. This puts more stress on the diff then any other gear can. Also when in 1st gear you are generally also in 4x4 so the front diff shares some of the stress but not always. The extra power I have and will have, will be used in the higher gears. I don't need more power in 1st gear. I can already pretty much pull anything I want in 1st. When I was stock, to get it to go in 1st gear up a tough section, I would have the engine reving at 5000 + rpms. The wheels would spin and then catch. This had to put a very heavy tug on the diff and probably more then I will be applying when I'm crawling up sections at a much slower speed because of the extra torque at lower rpms. Even though I'll have considerably more torque, I won't be jamming the diff like when it would spin and catch before. I know, it all sounds good but time will tell on the diffs. If I was still a kid, they wouldn't last past the first day. You know how it was when you were young and didn't really know what you were doing. You would rev the engine and let the clutch fly. Aging has mellowed out how I apply power. I think the diff will hold if I don't try to jerk the 1800 pound Trooper around but ease power on instead. The higher low end torque allows that.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

Go for it,, then you can do all the testing,& dyno's you want,,,,,,,, I'm very happy with all the updates I've had done to mine....even if they just " Feel" better? lmao,,,Quig

Didn't mean or try to offend!

Why are people so edgy?

rocmoc n AZ

[rocmoc]

Never fear, Lennys here. You didn't think with all the mods I have put on my Trooper I would skip the Cam upgrade did you? Talked with Rick at Silverbullet today and I'm getting his next set of cams. I put off the dyno tuning work that was scheduled for tomorrow near Las Vegas. Planned on taking it in as long as I was going there anyway for a trade show. I should get the cams in about a week or two and should have the dyno tuning with the new cams shortly after, Want it done for the Jamboree. I should have dyno print outs for torque and HP but it won't show the difference from a stock engine being that mine is ported, and port matched, changed compression ratio, supercharged, aftercooled, running a stand alone computer (Megasquirt) and after installed, aftermarket cams. But I have a good feel for the power I have now and should see a nice increase in low to midrange torque. This setup should make my setup killer in the sand dunes and power sliding the corners on the trails should be a riot. Like Rocmoc said the diff is always a concern but I don't plan on forcing it too much. Keep in mind that if the diff is going to tear up it will be when pulling hard in 1st gear. This puts more stress on the diff then any other gear can. Also when in 1st gear you are generally also in 4x4 so the front diff shares some of the stress but not always. The extra power I have and will have, will be used in the higher gears. I don't need more power in 1st gear. I can already pretty much pull anything I want in 1st. When I was stock, to get it to go in 1st gear up a tough section, I would have the engine reving at 5000 + rpms. The wheels would spin and then catch. This had to put a very heavy tug on the diff and probably more then I will be applying when I'm crawling up sections at a much slower speed because of the extra torque at lower rpms. Even though I'll have considerably more torque, I won't be jamming the diff like when it would spin and catch before. I know, it all sounds good but time will tell on the diffs. If I was still a kid, they wouldn't last past the first day. You know how it was when you were young and didn't really know what you were doing. You would rev the engine and let the clutch fly. Aging has mellowed out how I apply power. I think the diff will hold if I don't try to jerk the 1800 pound Trooper around but ease power on instead. The higher low end torque allows that.

Lenny

LOL! I almost called you out Lenny but thought I would wait to see if you were going this route. Problem is comparing your Trooper to mine is like comparing a Corvette to a VW.

rocmoc n AZ

[Quig]

Didn't mean or try to offend!

Why are people so edgy?

rocmoc n AZ

Not offended or edgy,, just really don't have money to do dyno's,"don't want to" No very good way to ck improvements,other than how it feels.. Thats all I care about ,,, how smooth it rides, how good it turns, how good it climbs hills,,"feels" like driving automatic,now with fuel controller,

Quote Lenny: But I have a good feel for the power I have now and should see a nice increase in low to midrange torque. This setup should make my setup killer in the sand dunes and power sliding the corners

Wasn't trying to cause problem,, lmao : )

[2scoops]

Never fear, Lennys here. You didn't think with all the mods I have put on my Trooper I would skip the Cam upgrade did you? Talked with Rick at Silverbullet today and I'm getting his next set of cams. I put off the dyno tuning work that was scheduled for tomorrow near Las Vegas. Planned on taking it in as long as I was going there anyway for a trade show. I should get the cams in about a week or two and should have the dyno tuning with the new cams shortly after, Want it done for the Jamboree. I should have dyno print outs for torque and HP but it won't show the difference from a stock engine being that mine is ported, and port matched, changed compression ratio, supercharged, aftercooled, running a stand alone computer (Megasquirt) and after installed, aftermarket cams. But I have a good feel for the power I have now and should see a nice increase in low to midrange torque. This setup should make my setup killer in the sand dunes and power sliding the corners on the trails should be a riot. Like Rocmoc said the diff is always a concern but I don't plan on forcing it too much. Keep in mind that if the diff is going to tear up it will be when pulling hard in 1st gear. This puts more stress on the diff then any other gear can. Also when in 1st gear you are generally also in 4x4 so the front diff shares some of the stress but not always. The extra power I have and will have, will be used in the higher gears. I don't need more power in 1st gear. I can already pretty much pull anything I want in 1st. When I was stock, to get it to go in 1st gear up a tough section, I would have the engine reving at 5000 + rpms. The wheels would spin and then catch. This had to put a very heavy tug on the diff and probably more then I will be applying when I'm crawling up sections at a much slower speed because of the extra torque at lower rpms. Even though I'll have considerably more torque, I won't be jamming the diff like when it would spin and catch before. I know, it all sounds good but time will tell on the diffs. If I was still a kid, they wouldn't last past the first day. You know how it was when you were young and didn't really know what you were doing. You would rev the engine and let the clutch fly. Aging has mellowed out how I apply power. I think the diff will hold if I don't try to jerk the 1800 pound Trooper around but ease power on instead. The higher low end torque allows that.

Lenny

First of all, I wanted to say I am absolutely impressed and amazed at the resolve it must have taken you to complete all of those engine upgrades. I hope it exceeds your expectations! So, when can I drop my Trooper off to Lenny's race factory? How much?

Second, I hear all of the concerns with our rear diff. Now, considered if we do the upgraded kit, get everything aligned properly, is it still considered a weak diff? I mean it is HUGE. It has to be twice the size of a RZR's. Are we saying it is overall just weak, or are we just saying it is the weakest link in the chain? Cause even on the best built rock crawler, the differentials & axles although beefed up, are still the weakest link due to the torque applied on them. Is that what we are saying about ours? Or, is there a better option our there for strength in the UTV market?

Last, am I not supposed to rev the engine and let the clutch fly? Is it bad to constantly bounce off of the rev limiter? If that is bad then I don't want to be good

[Guest Lenny]

First of all, I wanted to say I am absolutely impressed and amazed at the resolve it must have taken you to complete all of those engine upgrades. I hope it exceeds your expectations! So, when can I drop my Trooper off to Lenny's race factory? How much?

Second, I hear all of the concerns with our rear diff. Now, considered if we do the upgraded kit, get everything aligned properly, is it still considered a weak diff? I mean it is HUGE. It has to be twice the size of a RZR's. Are we saying it is overall just weak, or are we just saying it is the weakest link in the chain? Cause even on the best built rock crawler, the differentials & axles although beefed up, are still the weakest link due to the torque applied on them. Is that what we are saying about ours? Or, is there a better option our there for strength in the UTV market?

Last, am I not supposed to rev the engine and let the clutch fly? Is it bad to constantly bounce off of the rev limiter? If that is bad then I don't want to be good

The project sort of evolved. To get to this point, it included a lot of reworking. My supercharger is in it's third location. Each time an improvement but a lot of hours, fabrication and machining. It would be hard to put a price on it but supercharger kits will be available at some point. My wife keeps reminding me of what I said when I bought the Trooper. It has lots of power, it's built heavy so we shouldn't have to put extra money into it to bring it up to expectations. Didn't take long before I saw areas that needed changing. It hasn't stopped since.

The diffs have not been assembled correctly from the factory and they should have used stronger bolts while securing them better from coming loose. Loosening bolts leads to diff failure. Mis-aligned gears leads to gear failure. Loose tollerances leads to extra stress being applied to the internals. So far I haven't heard of anyone that has actually tore teeth off the gears because the teeth just couldn't take the torque. I tore up a ring gear, stripped the teeth off but this was my own fault. Even though it was upgraded, thanks to attention deficit, I forgot to restrain the pinion gear from being able to move towards the center of the ring gear. When this happens, the larger part of the pinion teeth try to mesh with the narrower part of the ring gear, thus wedging hard inbetween them. This wedging action brakes the ring gear teeth off. I have as I'm sure others have at times, when in a steep rock section, had to rev the engine way up while letting the clutch out to get every bit of torque to the wheels that I could just to get going and didn't tear out the diff. In this kind of situation, the vast majority of the weight is on the rear wheels. I remember being concerned about coming over backwards. All in all, I think the diff will hold a fair amount of torque and should last quite a while. Are they built as good as a typical automotive diff? I would say no. If mine ever fail, I plan on trying to fine a different diff. It's finding one that locks out is hard. I would rather not have to attempt to convert a standard diff to a locking diff. If I ever do go to another diff, I'll lower my ratio from stock (I'm running Renegade pinion gears) from about 2.3:1 to about 3:1. I dont need a lot of speed and still could probably go 55-60 mph with my 31" tires. This would bring my shifted gearing closer together that should help in the trails when hot rodding.

Reving the engine and letting the clutch fly like your trying to burn out on pavement is very hard on it. Reving the engine and kind of easing the clutch out isn't too bad. The rev limiter is there to protect the engine and prevent over reving. I don't see any problem with the engine reving to the rev limit and cutting out until rpms lower. Now days engines are reved much more then in the past but, I'm old school and prefer to work with torque rather then screaming the engine. The Chery engine seems to be a real solid engine and I think it can take the revs.

Lenny

[2scoops]

The project sort of evolved. To get to this point, it included a lot of reworking. My supercharger is in it's third location. Each time an improvement but a lot of hours, fabrication and machining. It would be hard to put a price on it but supercharger kits will be available at some point. My wife keeps reminding me of what I said when I bought the Trooper. It has lots of power, it's built heavy so we shouldn't have to put extra money into it to bring it up to expectations. Didn't take long before I saw areas that needed changing. It hasn't stopped since.

The diffs have not been assembled correctly from the factory and they should have used stronger bolts while securing them better from coming loose. Loosening bolts leads to diff failure. Mis-aligned gears leads to gear failure. Loose tollerances leads to extra stress being applied to the internals. So far I haven't heard of anyone that has actually tore teeth off the gears because the teeth just couldn't take the torque. I tore up a ring gear, stripped the teeth off but this was my own fault. Even though it was upgraded, thanks to attention deficit, I forgot to restrain the pinion gear from being able to move towards the center of the ring gear. When this happens, the larger part of the pinion teeth try to mesh with the narrower part of the ring gear, thus wedging hard inbetween them. This wedging action brakes the ring gear teeth off. I have as I'm sure others have at times, when in a steep rock section, had to rev the engine way up while letting the clutch out to get every bit of torque to the wheels that I could just to get going and didn't tear out the diff. In this kind of situation, the vast majority of the weight is on the rear wheels. I remember being concerned about coming over backwards. All in all, I think the diff will hold a fair amount of torque and should last quite a while. Are they built as good as a typical automotive diff? I would say no. If mine ever fail, I plan on trying to fine a different diff. It's finding one that locks out is hard. I would rather not have to attempt to convert a standard diff to a locking diff. If I ever do go to another diff, I'll lower my ratio from stock (I'm running Renegade pinion gears) from about 2.3:1 to about 3:1. I dont need a lot of speed and still could probably go 55-60 mph with my 31" tires. This would bring my shifted gearing closer together that should help in the trails when hot rodding.

Reving the engine and letting the clutch fly like your trying to burn out on pavement is very hard on it. Reving the engine and kind of easing the clutch out isn't too bad. The rev limiter is there to protect the engine and prevent over reving. I don't see any problem with the engine reving to the rev limit and cutting out until rpms lower. Now days engines are reved much more then in the past but, I'm old school and prefer to work with torque rather then screaming the engine. The Chery engine seems to be a real solid engine and I think it can take the revs.

Lenny

So will you be marketing the supercharger kit? A ball park price would be nice, so I can start saving my pennys.

[Guest Lenny]

So will you be marketing the supercharger kit? A ball park price would be nice, so I can start saving my pennys.

No, I won't be offering it but I do know it's being worked on by others.

Lenny

[ricksrb]

No, I won't be offering it but I do know it's being worked on by others.

Lenny

Cmon Lenny,you dont have anything else to do..(LOL)

[Mopartist]

Hey Lenny; if the timing would have been right; I HAD a narrowed Dana 60 with 4:10s I would have made you a killer deal on! (Kidding of coarse) You could NEVER break that! Heh heh! Rated up to 800 HP at the wheels.

That was "Pre" Trooper though.