New Trooper Power Steering unit

[ricksrb]

Not a problem, you just may not be able to have two honeys and drive no handed.

LEnny

darn...wouldnt know...

[Kinarfi]

Got it in, just like I said I would, now I have to take it out and paint the bracket. Can't test it yet, need to get my bearings in.

It would be nice if there was a spline that was rigid instead a U joint, but what I did should work. A few little notes, the mounting holes are not symmetrical, Lenny was right, there spline don't really match our splines, but they seem to work together anyway.

Photos: 1st of 11

Kinarfi

[Kinarfi]

I just talked to Kyle at Superatv.com and asked about what happens when you hit the end of travel of the steering rack and he says the unit senses the stall and quits supplying power. He also said that when you are all done install the unit and ready to go get wet, put silicone around the three plugs to keep the water out, or at least silicone grease.

If there is anyone back in or around Madison, IN 47250, you ought to give Kyle a call at 812.574.7777 or an email at [email protected] and make arrangement to take your Trooper in so they can look at what we need, bet you get a good deal on one if you do.

kinarfi

[Guest Lenny]

Played with mine some more and found it to start acting wierd. Almost like it was opposing me at time. I mounted mine to float but when I did it, I was a little cdoncerned about the slop in the input shaft. I decided that this shaft being right next to the sensor, the movement of the shaft might be causing problems. It was. I remounted ridgid this morning and the problem went away. Felt better and went to neutral better.

Lenny

[ricksrb]

I just talked to Kyle at Superatv.com and asked about what happens when you hit the end of travel of the steering rack and he says the unit senses the stall and quits supplying power. He also said that when you are all done install the unit and ready to go get wet, put silicone around the three plugs to keep the water out, or at least silicone grease.

If there is anyone back in or around Madison, IN 47250, you ought to give Kyle a call at 812.574.7777 or an email at [email protected] and make arrangement to take your Trooper in so they can look at what we need, bet you get a good deal on one if you do.

kinarfi

Plumber is willing to take his over and the owner and casey is supposed to contact him when they are ready.At least that was the plan as of Wednesday.

Kinarfi,

I sent you another PDF this morning showing the areas to water proof.

[ricksrb]

Played with mine some more and found it to start acting wierd. Almost like it was opposing me at time. I mounted mine to float but when I did it, I was a little cdoncerned about the slop in the input shaft. I decided that this shaft being right next to the sensor, the movement of the shaft might be causing problems. It was. I remounted ridgid this morning and the problem went away. Felt better and went to neutral better.

Lenny

think you will be giving it a road test today?

[Guest Lenny]

think you will be giving it a road test today?

I'm planning on it. I'll keep you informed. We'll need Kinarfi's road test too because he is using the stock rack and pinion. This will give a comparison.

Lenny

[plumber]

Plumber is willing to take his over and the owner and casey is supposed to contact him when they are ready.At least that was the plan as of Wednesday.

Kinarfi,

I sent you another PDF this morning showing the areas to water proof.

David, I want to say that would be a big help to get one in to the shop how far away from madison are you. Best Regards, Kyle

[Guest Lenny]

Did my test drive. Seemed to work just fine. Wife liked it too. The only area I felt it was under powered was when I was in 4x4 full lockout. It helps but it is still hard to turn. Wife wouldn't like driving it that way. This is going to be nice and make life easier. Now we need to see what Kinarfi says about it on the stock rack and pinion.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

Did my test drive. Seemed to work just fine. Wife liked it too. The only area I felt it was under powered was when I was in 4x4 full lockout. It helps but it is still hard to turn. Wife wouldn't like driving it that way. This is going to be nice and make life easier. Now we need to see what Kinarfi says about it on the stock rack and pinion.

Lenny

Just talked to Jose at Silverbullet and my bearing are shipping tonight, anticipate Tues or Wed and then I'll get them and and test drive. Worst case scenario, my test drive will take about 3 or 4 day , I hope, so I won't be able to post, but you'll probably here from me Wed

[rocmoc]

Did my test drive. Seemed to work just fine. Wife liked it too. The only area I felt it was under powered was when I was in 4x4 full lockout. It helps but it is still hard to turn. Wife wouldn't like driving it that way. This is going to be nice and make life easier. Now we need to see what Kinarfi says about it on the stock rack and pinion.

Lenny

Lenny, would you say with the new power steering the Trooper drives as well in 4x4 full lockout as before in 2wd. I would be very happy if it drove easy in 2wd and like it does now in 2wd in 4x4 full lock with the power steering. Get what I am saying. I am trying to compare/gauge where your 4x4 full lockout feel is.

rocmoc n AZ

[Guest Lenny]

Lenny, would you say with the new power steering the Trooper drives as well in 4x4 full lockout as before in 2wd. I would be very happy if it drove easy in 2wd and like it does now in 2wd in 4x4 full lock with the power steering. Get what I am saying. I am trying to compare/gauge where your 4x4 full lockout feel is.

rocmoc n AZ

It may not be quite that good but it's driveable. As you know there were places that one just couldn't turn the wheel in 4x4 lockout. At least now you can. However mine was acting a bit funny when in 4x4 lockout. a lot like it was before when I had the unit floated. In other workd it seemed to fight me at times or want to turn one way more then the other. Didn't do it anymore in 2 wheel lock or in 4x4 just rear locked. Mounting the unit solid made a big difference. Thinking that maybe the extra pull on the unit is making the input shaft move around in its bearing play. I may tear mine down and see about getting rid of the bearing play. Right now I think there is a 70% chance that will change everything. Keep in mind, I'm running a 3:1 rack and pinion. It's too soon to know for sure without further expirmenting.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

I applied power to my steering to day and it seems to work great, then I took it all apart so I could paint the mounting and then I'll put it all back together, replace the bearing and go for a ride. I'll try the 4x4 lock up in the back yard on grass and see how it works. Took the steering rack cap off and cleaned every thing up and reinstalled and readjusted and every thing seems good and tight, seems the ball joints are loosest part of the system.

Took photos of the bracket I made and then took measurements and added to them to the photos, if anyone should want to copy what I did.

1st of several

Kinarfi

[Guest Lenny]

When I did the mount plate for he power head, I tool a piece of paper and cut a hole in it to go over the seal on the shaft. Holding it in place, I pressed my finger tightly over each hole while sort of rubbing it into the hole to mark the three holes. The center hole is centered on the three holes. This worked good fo rme.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

When I did the mount plate for he power head, I tool a piece of paper and cut a hole in it to go over the seal on the shaft. Holding it in place, I pressed my finger tightly over each hole while sort of rubbing it into the hole to mark the three holes. The center hole is centered on the three holes. This worked good fo rme.

Lenny

One thing I did notice is that the holes are not symmetrical and do not have the same distance from hole to hole, they do appear to have the same distance from center.

[Guest Lenny]

Worked with the power steering today, tried a few things and came up with some conclusions. First off I found the best way to center the powerhead is to remove the motor, not by the philips screws but buy the hex head bolts. This way you can set the motor up on the frame and adjust the centering while watching the motor which now turns easily without any holdback. It's much easier to find the dead center where the motor doesn't want to pull one way or the other . Mine centered up perfectly and the steering wheel no longer jumps when it's turned on. Next, I've come to the conclusion that the reason the unit doesn't do well in 4x4 lockout is that because of the extra steering wheel input, it thinks it's at the end of travel and shuts the power to the motor. That's why I felt it was fighting against me. It would start to steer it ok, and of course, I was forcing it in a hard situation, and it would then go off and the steering would get hard making it feel like it was fighting me. This is something that only Kinarfi may be able to solve. Possibly there is an adjustment in the control box that sets this shut off point. Possibly he can come up with something to outsmart the controller when this happens. Another thought is putting a more powerfull motor on it. As some of you know I have been using the electric power steering rack and pinion box out of a Smart car. That is why I have a 3:1 rack and pinion ratio. Here is the interesting part. The motor on my Smart car steering is almost idenical to the motor on our recent purchased power steering head. Same diameter, same mounting, but only about 1/8" longer and looks idenical. Setting both motors on the bench and running them, I found the Smart motor to be probably a good 50% more powerful. I don't know if it is actually drawing more amps or it has much stronger magnets in it or just built better. Kinarfi can comment on this as he would better understand the reason for the difference. The mounting aluminumn casting that the motor bolts to with the phillips screws is idenical on both motors with the only variation being the surface that bolts to the power head. Same bolt pattern but a different way of sealing against he powerheads. I would say the two mounts came from the same factory or the Chineeze manufacture copied an existing standard motor mount plate. Looks like the output shaft of the motors are the same. This makes me think that a stronger motor could be found that would bolt right up and not be very expensive. I'm thinking $30-$50. On mine I ran the wires going to the motor, instead of to the new power head motor, to the Smart car steering box motor. Didn't drive it yet but first impression is that it is perfect. In 4x4 lockout standing still on concrete, it turned easy. Enough so that I couldn't tell it was in 4x4 lockout. It didn't kick out from feeling like it was at the end. My impression is that the stock motor will be a bit weak but feel confident that this can be solved easily. If my Smart motor being stronger was over pulling the controller, it would be kicking out, thinking it was at the end of travel but it doesn't. I think a more efficient motor will be the anwser to gettting more power. At this stage, I'm turning this conversation over to Kinarfi. I felt good enough about where I'm at with mine that I went ahead and cleaned up, un-tangled and finished up my front wiring and added the wire lume to complete that part which has been setting undone for some time. Figure my power steering is done.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

This is something that only Kinarfi may be able to solve. Possibly there is an adjustment in the control box that sets this shut off point. Possibly he can come up with something to outsmart the controller when this happens. Another thought is putting a more powerfull motor on it. As some of you know I have been using the electric power steering rack and pinion box out of a Smart car. That is why I have a 3:1 rack and pinion ratio. Here is the interesting part. The motor on my Smart car steering is almost idenical to the motor on our recent purchased power steering head. Same diameter, same mounting, but only about 1/8" longer and looks idenical. Setting both motors on the bench and running them, I found the Smart motor to be probably a good 50% more powerful. I don't know if it is actually drawing more amps or it has much stronger magnets in it or just built better. Kinarfi can comment on this as he would better understand the reason for the difference. The mounting aluminumn casting that the motor bolts to with the phillips screws is idenical on both motors with the only variation being the surface that bolts to the power head. Same bolt pattern but a different way of sealing against he powerheads. I would say the two mounts came from the same factory or the Chineeze manufacture copied an existing standard motor mount plate. Looks like the output shaft of the motors are the same. This makes me think that a stronger motor could be found that would bolt right up and not be very expensive. I'm thinking $30-$50. On mine I ran the wires going to the motor, instead of to the new power head motor, to the Smart car steering box motor. Didn't drive it yet but first impression is that it is perfect. In 4x4 lockout standing still on concrete, it turned easy. Enough so that I couldn't tell it was in 4x4 lockout. It didn't kick out from feeling like it was at the end. My impression is that the stock motor will be a bit weak but feel confident that this can be solved easily. If my Smart motor being stronger was over pulling the controller, it would be kicking out, thinking it was at the end of travel but it doesn't. I think a more efficient motor will be the anwser to gettting more power. At this stage, I'm turning this conversation over to Kinarfi. I felt good enough about where I'm at with mine that I went ahead and cleaned up, un-tangled and finished up my front wiring and added the wire lume to complete that part which has been setting undone for some time. Figure my power steering is done.

Lenny

Before I could make any comments, I would need to take a look at your Smart car motor and measure the current, on the stock motor, after it reaches the end and stalls, it drops the current to 10 amps. For the most part, work is work and 13 volts at around 20 - 25 amps is about 300 watts, from there you need to figure in the efficiency of the motor to see what you get out.

I wish I had taken pictures when I had the power head disassembled, but under the sensor that is under the gold plate is a gear(ring) assembly with a groove in it the the bearing at the end of the spring loaded sensor arm rides in and always follows one side of the grove. This gear moves maybe .050" total and the sensor detects how far it moves from home as the torque is applied to the steering wheel, .025 forward and .025 rearwards. So when adjusting the sensor, use small steps, very small and when finish and tighten it down, a little on each side until tight and then recheck your work. I checked mine by turning the U Joint by hand to see if it felt equal in each direction. I don't know if replacing all the hot glue is important or not, but it will probably protect the sensor from the elements a little, I think they had it in mind to help hold the sensor in position.

Another thought is do like the model car builders do, rewind the motor with heavier wire.

Another thought is how much power will the plastic gear that the worm gear turns take before it is damaged.

Kinarfi

[Guest Lenny]

Before I could make any comments, I would need to take a look at your Smart car motor and measure the current, on the stock motor, after it reaches the end and stalls, it drops the current to 10 amps. For the most part, work is work and 13 volts at around 20 - 25 amps is about 300 watts, from there you need to figure in the efficiency of the motor to see what you get out.

I wish I had taken pictures when I had the power head disassembled, but under the sensor that is under the gold plate is a gear(ring) assembly with a groove in it the the bearing at the end of the spring loaded sensor arm rides in and always follows one side of the grove. This gear moves maybe .050" total and the sensor detects how far it moves from home as the torque is applied to the steering wheel, .025 forward and .025 rearwards. So when adjusting the sensor, use small steps, very small and when finish and tighten it down, a little on each side until tight and then recheck your work. I checked mine by turning the U Joint by hand to see if it felt equal in each direction. I don't know if replacing all the hot glue is important or not, but it will probably protect the sensor from the elements a little, I think they had it in mind to help hold the sensor in position.

Another thought is do like the model car builders do, rewind the motor with heavier wire.

Kinarfi

I probably need to see if I can find a amp meter and hook it in line with the motor to get the readings. I have to feel that if it was drawing more amps, it would trigger the 'at end of steering' but it doesn't. At least not yet it hasn't where as the other would when standing still on concrete. That makes me think that the Smart motor is more efficient. Then again I'm 3:1 on the rack and pinion and the Smart motor has a 18:1 ratio with the worm gear where as the new power head has a 16-1/2:1 ratio so I gain a bit there too. Maybe a 2:1 planitary set between the motor and box like you used on your power steering. An adapter wouldn't be that complicasted I don't think. The motor seems to run at a failry slow RPM when on the bench and hooled to 12v but still much faster then when powering the steering. The worm in it has a double thread and is what they call a double involute, I think, which means that the worm itself is bigger on the ends then in the middle allowing it to wrap around the worm gear which engauges more teeth at a time then a straight cut worm. What it has is a double thread running on a 33 tooth worm gear giving the 16-1/2:1 ratio. There is also the possibility of replacing the worm and worm gear with a higher gear ratio set of gears but that might be more complex to do. I'm going to go to Ebay to find an amp meter.

Lenny

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

I probably need to see if I can find a amp meter and hook it in line with the motor to get the readings. I have to feel that if it was drawing more amps, it would trigger the 'at end of steering' but it doesn't. At least not yet it hasn't where as the other would when standing still on concrete. That makes me think that the Smart motor is more efficient. Then again I'm 3:1 on the rack and pinion and the Smart motor has a 18:1 ratio with the worm gear where as the new power head has a 16-1/2:1 ratio so I gain a bit there too. Maybe a 2:1 planitary set between the motor and box like you used on your power steering. An adapter wouldn't be that complicasted I don't think. The motor seems to run at a failry slow RPM when on the bench and hooled to 12v but still much faster then when powering the steering. The worm in it has a double thread and is what they call a double involute, I think, which means that the worm itself is bigger on the ends then in the middle allowing it to wrap around the worm gear which engauges more teeth at a time then a straight cut worm. What it has is a double thread running on a 33 tooth worm gear giving the 16-1/2:1 ratio. There is also the possibility of replacing the worm and worm gear with a higher gear ratio set of gears but that might be more complex to do. I'm going to go to Ebay to find an amp meter.

Lenny

Lenny

I can send the one I loaned you before, seems to be adequate for what we need, I can include the rack gear too. The other possibility is the amp meter off a battery charger, or a shunt that you can measure voltage on. Ebay number 180716792367 or 260821781465 for 100 amp 75 milivolt and 50 amp 75 milivolt.

[rocmoc]

Going old school here. The Trooper steering wheel is 13 3/4" dia. Our car & truck both are 15". Old school was to use a larger dia steering wheel to help with turning effort. How about it. Maybe even a 16" wheel ! Also makes a big diff what size wheels & tires you are running. Of course our 31X15's are gong to take more effort.

rocmoc n AZ

[Guest Lenny]

Bought an amp meter on Ebay 190562873583. Larger steering wheel will help a fair amount. 16" over stock will give about a 25% power boost. Thats pretty good. Also an inline gear reducer after the powerhead would work fine and simple to put in.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

Bought an amp meter on Ebay 190562873583. Larger steering wheel will help a fair amount. 16" over stock will give about a 25% power boost. Thats pretty good. Also an inline gear reducer after the powerhead would work fine and simple to put in.

Lenny

Can you put a link to a inline gear reducer ?

rocmoc n AZ

[Kinarfi]

Bought an amp meter on Ebay 190562873583. Larger steering wheel will help a fair amount. 16" over stock will give about a 25% power boost. Thats pretty good. Also an inline gear reducer after the powerhead would work fine and simple to put in.

Lenny

This particular meter movement has a 50mv full scale deflection and you need a 50 amp 50mv shunt for it.

120347507590 380214040564 280659469786 190569141212 350485360545

any one of these ebay numbers will work

type in "50 amp shunt" on ebay, the have some digital read out units with shunts too.

[Kinarfi]

This particular meter movement has a 50mv full scale deflection and you need a 50 amp 50mv shunt for it.

120347507590 380214040564 280659469786 190569141212 350485360545

any one of these ebay numbers will work

type in "50 amp shunt" on ebay, the have some digital read out units with shunts too.

a couple of comments about voltage and current measurements: The current reading indicates torque and voltage indicates speed of the motor. Voltage reading will be the combination of the internal resistance and CEMF voltage caused by the speed of the motor. I think I have that right

CEMF? google it

[ricksrb]

Worked with the power steering today, tried a few things and came up with some conclusions. First off I found the best way to center the powerhead is to remove the motor, not by the philips screws but buy the hex head bolts. This way you can set the motor up on the frame and adjust the centering while watching the motor which now turns easily without any holdback. It's much easier to find the dead center where the motor doesn't want to pull one way or the other . Mine centered up perfectly and the steering wheel no longer jumps when it's turned on. Next, I've come to the conclusion that the reason the unit doesn't do well in 4x4 lockout is that because of the extra steering wheel input, it thinks it's at the end of travel and shuts the power to the motor. That's why I felt it was fighting against me. It would start to steer it ok, and of course, I was forcing it in a hard situation, and it would then go off and the steering would get hard making it feel like it was fighting me. This is something that only Kinarfi may be able to solve. Possibly there is an adjustment in the control box that sets this shut off point. Possibly he can come up with something to outsmart the controller when this happens. Another thought is putting a more powerfull motor on it. As some of you know I have been using the electric power steering rack and pinion box out of a Smart car. That is why I have a 3:1 rack and pinion ratio. Here is the interesting part. The motor on my Smart car steering is almost idenical to the motor on our recent purchased power steering head. Same diameter, same mounting, but only about 1/8" longer and looks idenical. Setting both motors on the bench and running them, I found the Smart motor to be probably a good 50% more powerful. I don't know if it is actually drawing more amps or it has much stronger magnets in it or just built better. Kinarfi can comment on this as he would better understand the reason for the difference. The mounting aluminumn casting that the motor bolts to with the phillips screws is idenical on both motors with the only variation being the surface that bolts to the power head. Same bolt pattern but a different way of sealing against he powerheads. I would say the two mounts came from the same factory or the Chineeze manufacture copied an existing standard motor mount plate. Looks like the output shaft of the motors are the same. This makes me think that a stronger motor could be found that would bolt right up and not be very expensive. I'm thinking $30-$50. On mine I ran the wires going to the motor, instead of to the new power head motor, to the Smart car steering box motor. Didn't drive it yet but first impression is that it is perfect. In 4x4 lockout standing still on concrete, it turned easy. Enough so that I couldn't tell it was in 4x4 lockout. It didn't kick out from feeling like it was at the end. My impression is that the stock motor will be a bit weak but feel confident that this can be solved easily. If my Smart motor being stronger was over pulling the controller, it would be kicking out, thinking it was at the end of travel but it doesn't. I think a more efficient motor will be the anwser to gettting more power. At this stage, I'm turning this conversation over to Kinarfi. I felt good enough about where I'm at with mine that I went ahead and cleaned up, un-tangled and finished up my front wiring and added the wire lume to complete that part which has been setting undone for some time. Figure my power steering is done.

Lenny

Lenny,

Could you clarify a couple things for me.First,would you say the unit as it comes in the box if installed correctly on a stock rack makes a big difference in the ease of steering in 2 wd and 4 wd? I assume its when you put the front diff if lock out is when it seems to have the difficulty or just feels the same as before without the power steering correct? You said you power steering is done,is that with the smart car motor installed on the ez steer power head ?

Thanks,

[Guest Lenny]

KInarfi, would you explain how the shunt works in the circuit? If a motor had rare earth magnets wouldn't it have more power for the same amperage input? Do the Bain (motor on your power steering) people make low ratio single stage planitary gear box that is a size or 2 bigger that might work inline? Preferrably a 2:1 ratio. Their prices were good.

Ricksrb, I used the Smart car motor on the Smart car box and I'm using the new box for sensing torque and it's controller. The stock ez-steer power steering worked fine in 4x4 with rear only locked. Keep in mind that I'm running a 3:1 rack and pinion. We will need to see how Kinarfis test with the stock steering box before we have a final anser on this question. Maybe the ez steering people can get a stronger motor from the manufacture that will bolt right up or a higher worm to worm gear ratio.

Rocmoc, let me check further on the inline reducers. They may be too expensive.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

A bigger carbon fiber steering wheel is only $50, LOL !

http://www.streetbeatcustoms.com/Spec_D-Tuning/Steering-Wheels/Universal-Spec_D-Tuning-F16-Carbon-Steering-Wheel-_-320mm-_-Black-_-SW_9410032_BK_BS/772089/

rocmoc n AZ

[ricksrb]

KInarfi, would you explain how the shunt works in the circuit? If a motor had rare earth magnets wouldn't it have more power for the same amperage input? Do the Bain (motor on your power steering) people make low ratio single stage planitary gear box that is a size or 2 bigger that might work inline? Preferrably a 2:1 ratio. Their prices were good.

Ricksrb, I used the Smart car motor on the Smart car box and I'm using the new box for sensing torque and it's controller. The stock ez-steer power steering worked fine in 4x4 with rear only locked. Keep in mind that I'm running a 3:1 rack and pinion. We will need to see how Kinarfis test with the stock steering box before we have a final anser on this question. Maybe the ez steering people can get a stronger motor from the manufacture that will bolt right up or a higher worm to worm gear ratio.

Rocmoc, let me check further on the inline reducers. They may be too expensive.

Lenny

Thanks lenny,dont forget some photos when you have a chance.It will give us a better idea of what you did.What was the cost of the smart car motor and box?

[Guest Lenny]

Thanks lenny,dont forget some photos when you have a chance.It will give us a better idea of what you did.What was the cost of the smart car motor and box?

I paid $50 for it on Ebay but they arn't very common. Sit tight yet, Kinarfi and I are entertaining some different ideas and may conduct some expirmenting.

Lenny

[Guest Lenny]

Link to in-line gear reducer. Not too pricy either. This would be the same gearbox that Kinarfi and I used before when we were developing an electric power steering. this would go inbetween the motor and power head with an adapter. We would use a single stage box with a 3:1 reduction ratio. It wouldn't change the amount you would turn the steering wheel but increase the EZs power steering power by 3 times. About right. I'm going to make an adapter and send it to Kinarfi for testing. He'll need to do some electronics testing and look at over torque protection and re-setting the stall Amp draw if possible.

http://banebots.com/c/P80K-S4

Lenny