New Trooper Power Steering unit

[rocmoc]

Thanks Lenny.

Question. You have a 3:1 rack and the stock is 2:1. Which takes the most effort to turn? I have my understanding but I want to hear yours.

rocmoc n AZ

[ricksrb]

Link to in-line gear reducer. Not too pricy either. This would be the same gearbox that Kinarfi and I used before when we were developing an electric power steering. this would go inbetween the motor and power head with an adapter. We would use a single stage box with a 3:1 reduction ratio. It wouldn't change the amount you would turn the steering wheel but increase the EZs power steering power by 3 times. About right. I'm going to make an adapter and send it to Kinarfi for testing. He'll need to do some electronics testing and look at over torque protection and re-setting the stall Amp draw if possible.

http://banebots.com/c/P80K-S4

Lenny

I hope kinarfi gets his bearings(wheel bearings) and test drives it with his stock set up first so we can get his feedback on how the unit works.

[Kinarfi]

I'm expecting my bearing today and will definitely test as is prior to any modifications.

[Guest Lenny]

Thanks Lenny.

Question. You have a 3:1 rack and the stock is 2:1. Which takes the most effort to turn? I have my understanding but I want to hear yours.

rocmoc n AZ

The 3:1 rack is easier. Think of it this way. It takes a certain amount of force to turn the front wheels. If I'm using say a 12" diameter steering wheel which is 3.1416 feet around the rim, stockl, I have to move the rim 6.2832 feet to move the tires from one side to the other. With a 3:1 reduction and the rack, I have to move the steering wheel rim 9.42 feet to do the same work thus the work required per revolution is less. Now, if your racing on a track for example and your in a constant front wheel skidding mode to some degree, then effort would reduce down to nearly nothing so then a quicker steering setup would probably be easier to deal with because the wheel turns easy and you don't have to turn as much.

What Kinarfi and I are working on would not increase the amount the steering wheel is turned but instead would increase the assist by a factor of 3.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

The 3:1 rack is easier. Think of it this way. It takes a certain amount of force to turn the front wheels. If I'm using say a 12" diameter steering wheel which is 3.1416 feet around the rim, stockl, I have to move the rim 6.2832 feet to move the tires from one side to the other. With a 3:1 reduction and the rack, I have to move the steering wheel rim 9.42 feet to do the same work thus the work required per revolution is less. Now, if your racing on a track for example and your in a constant front wheel skidding mode to some degree, then effort would reduce down to nearly nothing so then a quicker steering setup would probably be easier to deal with because the wheel turns easy and you don't have to turn as much.

What Kinarfi and I are working on would not increase the amount the steering wheel is turned but instead would increase the assist by a factor of 3.

Lenny

We are in the same understanding! Can you or have you posted a pic of your smart car rack?

rocmoc n AZ

[Guest Lenny]

We are in the same understanding! Can you or have you posted a pic of your smart car rack?

rocmoc n AZ

Haven't yet but I will.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

Got my bearings and got them installed and took it out for a ride to see how things work. My snorkel sounded a lot better, quieter, oh yea, steering, from the driver's seat, I don't think it is as good as mine, not as sensitive to the torque, and may not have as much power, but I have had my right shoulder replaced and the left shoulder has a 3rd degree separation. I think it will do the job for most people that haven't put bigger tires on, when I put it in 4x4, I was able to do circles with the tires squealing on pavement, and I could do circles with lockers on gravel, but then things got weird, not sure if I was coming out of locker and/or 4x4 and I think the controller may be going into thermal shut down and very hard to turn, even with the power turned off. Need to do more testing, You may want to hold off for a while if you're planning on needing it for 4x4 with lockers. Probably going back up to Soapstone again pretty soon.

My first modification will be to mount a cooling fan to it.

Kinarfi

[rocmoc]

For myself, I am looking for power assisted steering which is different than full power steering. Full power you can drive with your finger tips, but power assist requires some manpower.

rocmoc n AZ

[2scoops]

Popped the hood and this is what I AM DOING !

I am mounting my unit under the dash. I am not changing the LONG steering shaft at all. I am putting the power steering unit between the top U-Joint and the small shaft the steering wheel is bolted to. There are two bolts under the dash that holds that shaft in place. I am moving that mount towards the driver enough to allow the power steering unit to be mounted in-line. No changes to any of the angles on the U-joints or shaft alignments. If the steering wheel is too close, there is plenty of shaft that can be shorten AT the Steering Wheel mounting plate (of course I will not cut anything until after a test drive). It is just a flat plate that is weld in place. This setup will leave all the shafts & U-joints as strong and as well designed as it is when it came from the factory. LOL !

Kinarfi, you should not have to redesign you tool bin. You may have to pull it out to do the work but the power steering unit is tucked up under the dash.

Just my humble plan. Of course it will be weeks before I get to it. I will try to do it in late Oct., first block of free time.

Also took the time to look at and move the steering arms and rack. Only slack I have is in the quality rack. Everything else is tight !

rocmoc n AZ

Finally got a chance to contemplate my install last night. I agree with Rocmoc as far as the install. It may take a little more fabrication, but it is easy fabrication. It will look factory if I do it this way and I can seal the unit off in the dash when I build my storage unit under the dash. Also, although the Super ATV U-Joint may be able to fit over our 34 spline shafts I would never use them because they are a 36 spline. Maintaining a good, tight fit on the splines is imperative if you don't want to strip them out.

I actually am playing with the idea disassembling the U-Joints and making a Hybrid. One side would have the powersteering motor splines and one side would have our 34 spilne. I did do some measurements though and it looks like the U-Joint caps are slightly different sizes. So, before I do that I think I will shop around for one which might bolt right in.

I noticed I had a ton of play where the shafts slide into each other. This is the first time I have ever noticed this, so I think it has developed since I put 30 inch tires on. I am getting rid of the sliding male/female shaft design altogether--UNLESS I can find a quality aftermarket one I trust to not loosen. Once I do this I will have about 1/2" of play in the steering wheel--more than acceptable to me.

[Kinarfi]

I think I would like to rewrite my assessment of the power steering assist from SuperATV.com. Took it out for about an hour with amp meter wired in and it seems to work great for everything except front wheel lockers, that just takes too much power, Lenny's modification that he's working on will probably fix that. My unit still need some slight adjustment for center, but that's a simple task. When you take the steering wheel to the end of travel and hold it there, the unit pulls 10 amps, if you hit the stop and relax just a tad, the current drops back to 0 and you can drive in circles all day with almost no strain. I think it is a good little unit for most.

Kinarfi

[2scoops]

jeff,

what about kickback? when you hit a rock does it lessen the wheel jerk?

[ricksrb]

I think I would like to rewrite my assessment of the power steering assist from SuperATV.com. Took it out for about an hour with amp meter wired in and it seems to work great for everything except front wheel lockers, that just takes too much power, Lenny's modification that he's working on will probably fix that. My unit still need some slight adjustment for center, but that's a simple task. When you take the steering wheel to the end of travel and hold it there, the unit pulls 10 amps, if you hit the stop and relax just a tad, the current drops back to 0 and you can drive in circles all day with almost no strain. I think it is a good little unit for most.

Kinarfi

glad to hear it.for myself not in front wheel lockers much so if it helps otherwise i will be happy.Will keep a close watch on lennys fix though.Thanks kinarfi,

[Kinarfi]

jeff,

what about kickback? when you hit a rock does it lessen the wheel jerk?

Did you just call me a jerk?

I haven't been where I would experience that yet.

Kinarfi

[Kinarfi]

I think I would like to rewrite my assessment of the power steering assist from SuperATV.com. Took it out for about an hour with amp meter wired in and it seems to work great for everything except front wheel lockers, that just takes too much power, Lenny's modification that he's working on will probably fix that. My unit still need some slight adjustment for center, but that's a simple task. When you take the steering wheel to the end of travel and hold it there, the unit pulls 10 amps, if you hit the stop and relax just a tad, the current drops back to 0 and you can drive in circles all day with almost no strain. I think it is a good little unit for most.

Kinarfi

Email sent to Lyle at SuperATV.com

Hi Lyle,

My report from yesterday was seriously flawed, the problem was driver error in perception and Trooper error in operation. When I tried to disengage the lockers, they didn't disengage and I perceived this as being the controller holding the motor solid, The Trooper does not have a powerful engagement or disengagement system and relies of the matching of gears so there is not stress on coupler it can move. In tests yesterday, your steering unit worked very well and did not get warm. It did still have some bugs, but I have to figure out if the bugs are mine, Trooper or driver related, or in the steering unit.

Jeff Straw

Additional, to disengage 4x4 and lockers, there is the old back up method to relax the stress and I recently found the driving forward and turning the steering wheel left and right until you're sure they have all disengaged. This moves the stress from one side of the coupler from one side to the other and the coupler drops out as you go through zero.

Kinarfi

[Guest Lenny]

jeff,

what about kickback? when you hit a rock does it lessen the wheel jerk?

Kickback shouldn't be a problem. You may get some but far less then without the power steering. The instant the wheel starts to kick one direction it pulls the steering wheel against your hands holding it, the sensor senses that as you trying to turn it and immediately responds to counter act the kick. It will disengage just as quickly when the pressure quits pushing against your hands. I think all you will feel is a light quick tug on the wheel. Instead of full anti kickback it will be like asisted anti kickback. That probably won't work if I hit a tree with a front wheel trying to catch up to you guys.

Lenny

[ricksrb]

Kickback shouldn't be a problem. You may get some but far less then without the power steering. The instant the wheel starts to kick one direction it pulls the steering wheel against your hands holding it, the sensor senses that as you trying to turn it and immediately responds to counter act the kick. It will disengage just as quickly when the pressure quits pushing against your hands. I think all you will feel is a light quick tug on the wheel. Instead of full anti kickback it will be like asisted anti kickback. That probably won't work if I hit a tree with a front wheel trying to catch up to you guys.

Lenny

"That probably won't work if I hit a tree with a front wheel trying to catch up to you guys"

You mean as your looking back at us.....

[Guest Lenny]

"That probably won't work if I hit a tree with a front wheel trying to catch up to you guys"

You mean as your looking back at us.....

Did that when I was about 10 years old. Going down a hill on the sidwalk and was looking back and ran into a speed limit sign. Got lucky and didn't get hurt but caved in the wire basket on the front of the bike. ADD got me again.

Lenny

[Guest Lenny]

Sent adapter parts to Kinarfi for putting Banebots inline gearbox between EZ power steering drive box and motor. I'm sure he will be reporting in a few days as to how it works. This won't be the final review because he will be using a different inline box ratio then what is best but it will give us an idea of how this idea is goint to work and help find any issues that miight arise from this approach.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

Sent adapter parts to Kinarfi for putting Banebots inline gearbox between EZ power steering drive box and motor. I'm sure he will be reporting in a few days as to how it works. This won't be the final review because he will be using a different inline box ratio then what is best but it will give us an idea of how this idea is goint to work and help find any issues that miight arise from this approach.

Lenny

guess I better get the gear box ordered

[Kinarfi]

jeff,

what about kickback? when you hit a rock does it lessen the wheel jerk?

Took a 62 mile ride yesterday, pavement and trail, including rocky area and kick back is NOT a problem, actual, it's almost not present, I even let go of the steering wheel and at that point the steering wheel would jump back and forth maybe a 1/4 of a turn but that was probably mostly slop in the linkage, but kept going straight. For me and my weak shoulders, it is just a tad stiff, but very functional. I don't think you'll be disappointed with it. Handled good on pavement also, nice smooth operation into and out of turns and operate as if it weren't there like when stock, but with a dampener. Had a amp meter taped to the console so I could monitor it power requirements and most of the time it was a 0. Didn't do any 4X4, so no report there.

[rocmoc]

Sounding BETTER !

rocmoc n AZ

[Guest Lenny]

Here are the pictures of my power steering installation. There are 16 pictures to scroll thru. First one shows suspension up so when positioning the power head I sure it won't collide with the A-arm. The pictures should be fairly self explanitory. There are some things that you will notice. My column can't collapse so that I can slide it onto the upper spleen. Instead I use a split coupler that can be put on from the side and clamped in position. I basically cut off the EZ U-joints so I could use just the spleen part of the coupling to go onto the power head. In order to get the column shafts to mount true to the spleened bore, I machined the U-joints cut off legs to assure a centered match of column to coupler. The two legs of the U-joints are not very centered. Typical China. Some time back I replaced the column joints with ones without play. Bought a column shaft off Ebay and used it. You will see that It had a nice shock cushioner that I kept and used. The mounting of the power head is nothing more then a piece of 1/8" thick aluminum mounted to a 3/16 x 1" steel strip welded to the frame. The mounting is suprisingly rock solid. You can't move or flex anything at all. The controller is mounted under the dash which I have completely closed off to the front so it stays dry and clean. You'll notice that I have added 2 terminal strips under the dash. These provide me with an easy source to the 12 volt power. One strip connects straight to the battery and is always hot, the other is only hot when the key is turned on. The last 4 pictures are of my Smart car power steering rack and pinion installation. Rocmoc asked me to post pictures of this. This installation was much more involved and included cutting into and rerouting a bit of frame. I found that I can run both power steering head motors in parrellel at the same time. Dispite the idea that each then only gets 1/2 the current so there should be no power gain, there is a gain. I figure that because the two motors are in parellel, that the resistance to current flow is less allowing more current to flow which then is split between the motors. Running one motor I get about 23 amps powering it but with two motors, I'm getting 30 amps. This gave me a noticable increase in power without having to be worried about the controller which has overload protection which is there for when you hit the maximum turning point. I now can turn the steering wheel back and forth with one finger, the index finger not the pinky. Jeanne probably couldn't do it with one finger. I have come to the conclusion that the basdic stock steering provided by the EZ unit will probably serve the needs of most and if it doesn't, for about $100-$125 you can easily double or tripple the power. Kinarfi wil be testing this increased power setup shortly.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

Thanks Lenny. So you inserted mid-stream on the long shaft. You now have three (3) shafts in your configuration.

rocmoc n AZ

[Kinarfi]

jeff,

what about kickback? when you hit a rock does it lessen the wheel jerk?

Just spent 4 days driving around in all conditions, rocky, pavement, dusty, wet, not much mud, and I have to say it's a good little unit, not enough power for front lockers, and only occasionally did it seem not add enough power, but for the most part, it did well! and in the rocky, bumpy places where kick back would rip your thumbs off, I had my thumb on the inside of the wheel and I still have them. It was stable enough to let go of the steering wheel and zip up my coat with out a problem. On pavement, it felt solid as can be, no wandering or twitchiness, just rock solid, and I have stock parts except for Lenny's cap on the steering box.

Kinarfi

[ricksrb]

Just spent 4 days driving around in all conditions, rocky, pavement, dusty, wet, not much mud, and I have to say it's a good little unit, not enough power for front lockers, and only occasionally did it seem not add enough power, but for the most part, it did well! and in the rocky, bumpy places where kick back would rip your thumbs off, I had my thumb on the inside of the wheel and I still have them. It was stable enough to let go of the steering wheel and zip up my coat with out a problem. On pavement, it felt solid as can be, no wandering or twitchiness, just rock solid, and I have stock parts except for Lenny's cap on the steering box.

Kinarfi

Glad to hear the good news.Really good to hear you still have your thumbs,(LOL)

[rocmoc]

Great, we are getting there !

rocmoc n AZ

[2scoops]

Thanks for the good news

[ricksrb]

Worked off and on over the weekend and finished it up yesterday afternoon.Not having any trails nearby I was only able to take it for a short test drive. I found it to make at least a 60-70% improvement in 2wd,and 4wd. I did try it in 4wd with lockers and did notice a slight improvement,maybe as much as 20% but as I mentioned it was a short drive. This was on asphault.At a stand still on concrete and ashault you can easily turn the wheel completely in each direction with one hand.Bruhaw is stoping by this afternoon and will get his opinion on how it feels.Needless to say i am very happy.

[Guest Lenny]

Nice clean install. Only problem I see is that you need to throw some road dust into the area so it is dirty like mine. You do know that super clean buggys are illegal off road. That is 2 members that feel the stock install will be fine for most. Yours is a bit heavier on the front too then the T2. Kinarfi will shortly be testing a modification that will increase steering assist power considerably. This will be a mod that is fairly easy and would cost about $100-$125. You would just need to make a flat adapter plate, a couple of spacers and a coupler and buy a small planitary gear box with motor. I can supply the drawings for the adapter items, no charge.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

COOL !!!!!

rocmoc n AZ