Hayg Fuel Pump

[ERV JR]

Thanks ERV JR for the referience. I checked on the specks on that pump and by what I found the are not as good as the stock pump. Free flow 30gph, 70psi thru the regulator. I want to increase both because I'am having some problems with the engine not getting enough fuel and if I want to modify my engine later it needs to be enough to cover the mods.

it says the min flow is 30 gph @70 psi, if pump output is @ max 40gph that they list you will flow 40 gph, the regulator will return most of the fuel. These little 1100cc engines dont need that voloume, look at the regulator they have 1/4npt barbed fittings, the id is small and those wont flow very much. If the pump flows enough volume to keep the engine happy and the pressure can be regulated down its fine.

[showa]

I broke out the wallet and ordered the Bosch....

[ERV JR]

I bought the Airtex E2000 tonight and put it on, set pressure to 50 psi and took it for a few blasts down the street and around th eshop parking lot a few times, running really well and also starts easier. I dont have to hold the gas pedal down anymore. I got the pump with my wholesale account for $56.99. I am happy

[ERV JR]

these people are stupid who built these things. Why mount the filter higher than the pickup point ? I know most of you have changed that on yours and I will do so after this weekends trip. Also its a bad idea to run the return right next to the outlet bung as it can cause cavatation of the pump. My list of changes and repairs gets longer but I dont have time ,and only work on it until its time to take it out lol

[lowgear]

Lenny probably has the very best set up, but we should'nt have to go to those extremes to get fuel to these engines. ERV JR is right about the position of the return line being next to the feed line. I changed mine, located the return about 4-5 in . above the feed and put in a feed line that is 5/8in id. with a shut off. I don't have any problems with feed anymore. I myself feel that I need more from the pump itself. Everyone should take some of the suggestions to heart because they are right and do as you think it should be done. I'am not trying to start anything it's just my opinion.

[Guest Lenny]

You are right Lowgear, it shouldn't need what I have. After all they seem to run fine when they are new except for a gas tank flaw that lets them run out of gas when on a hill. As many of you know, I'm sort of a work-alcoholic so I do many things to mine that may not be necessary but they are generally an improvement. Don't try to follow my lead, you could stand a chance of working yourself to death. I spend a good deal of time daily in my shop and have since i was about 10 years old. Doesn't necessarily make since but it's what makes me tick.

Lenny

[rocmoc]

EVR, You should never have to give fuel to a fuel injected engine if it is running correctly. The computer should make the adjustment for you.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

[ERV JR]

EVR, You should never have to give fuel to a fuel injected engine if it is running correctly. The computer should make the adjustment for you.

rocmoc n AZ/Mexico

no the pump runs of a few seconds then turns off til the engine is started but with the pump acting up it bleeds off the pressure that was in the system, I tested it with a gauge. I myself worked in the automive, heavy equipment and fab field. I have a good understanding of computer controled engines and what the sensors do how systems operate. I also have agood understanding of fuel systems and hp requirments and design, I have build many drag cars and done plenty of fuel systems at my shop. My point is that you dont alot of pump to supply a small engine that sees 5k rpm, the pump should be gravity fed also. Yeah you could slap an Areomotive A1000 pump on it but its going to return most to tank and create heat since its moving the fuel so much

[showa]

Ok, here's my thoughts on my fuel pump experience.

My stock pump died.

The Hayg pump went in ran then quit a week later after sitting. Noticed the out nipple had a check valve that was stuck and bent. Removed check valve.

Second Hayg did same thing. No check valve.

Bosch pump in. Couple days later it doesn't want to work. No check valve.

Bang it and it starts working.

Go with direct 12v line thru a toggle switch and is still reluctant to work.

Install in line flow check valve and the pump appears to work great even after setting for a few days.

So I guess it needs that check valve to function consistently.

[Guest Lenny]

Yes it should but that is about 80 gallons per hour and that means that 1-1/3 gallons must get through the return line in 1 minute. That may be a bit much. Guess i'm not totally comfortable with that.

Lenny

[lowgear]

The free flow rating on elec. in line fuel pumps is at Opsi. The more pressure you set at the regulator the less flow you will get out of the pump. Talk to any of the makers of these pumps that is what they will tell you. I did a small test to see myself, I set up a cannester with markings on the side and put the feed line in. Then I timed how long the pump ran, in my case it slowed the output down too 52gph. That is with a pump rated at 70gph. I don't know what that would do to a smaller pump. I do run mine at 70psi so my results will be differient than most. I talked to the tech guy at Kinsler Injection and he confirmed that if the system is set up to handle the extra pressure it will atomize the fuel better and it will put more fuel in at the same timming the drivers are set at. He also told me that if the system is gravity fed that the pump should'd be more than 12" away from the tank, less chance of cavitation that usually is the case of pump failier.

[Kinarfi]

Showa sent me his dead pump and I cut it open and the insides look like the it had some green as if the it was full of gas and allowed to dry out, I ran some very fine sand paper over the commutator and got the armature back into the brushes and it spun right up. Too bad I can't put it back together so it's usable. Interesting construction, there is a shaft through the center of the armature that is stationary and the rest of the armature spins on that, never seen that before.

Kinarfi

[showa]

Good to hear the autopsy report.... Lol... Hope the "green" doesn't kill the Bosch...

[Kinarfi]

Good to hear the autopsy report.... Lol... Hope the "green" doesn't kill the Bosch...

I'm sure Bosch has enough of the other green to survive

[lowgear]

I've never taken one apart but it sounds like the armature has some type of bearing or bushing on the inside to spin on the shaft. but if it does this how does it pump fuel or does the armature have a vain type setup that pushes fuel over it and out.

[Kinarfi]

Here's how the pumps work, not just the bosch, but most, if not all, of them.

Kinarfi

[showa]

#€£¥*#~¥£€ it.....

The Bosch won't work now... I must have some contaminated fuel or something....

Getting power to pump but no sounds nor function...

Getting awfully frustrated, have moved my AR15 from safe to next to back door........

[Kinarfi]

before you shoot it to death, call me,801-358-8166, if you're tricky, patient and clever, you can cut it apart and put it back together with epoxy and theoretically, save a few bucks, if you don't want to mess with it, send it to me and I'll try to fix it and keep it for a spare, you could try putting some acetone in it and maybe that will eat the varnish inside and revive it. USE a hack saw, not a pipe cutter, You can cut it in two by cutting it about 1/4 inch toward the center from the ring near the top, this gives you some surface to epoxy to and hopefully you still have room to reach inside and push the brushes out of the way so the armature can be put back in.

Kinarfi

[showa]

Tricky and clever I'm not, patient I can be.

Removed old gas. New gas, lines and filter.

Sprayed both inlet and outlet of pump with carb cleaner (based on what Kinarfi found during last autopsy, thanks again).

Buttoned it all up, said short prayer and it all works again.

We'll see how long this lasts.

Put AR back in safe but still have 44 special handy.

This is the West after all, I can shoot a lame horse.

[Kinarfi]

Glad I could help,

I'm not sure you can shoot your horse any more, seems I heard the horse lovers have got the rights for a horse about the same as a cat or dog, so go behind the hill and around the corner before you shoot your horse and hope no one has the phone camera on you as you do or you'll probably end up in prison, but, to the best of my knowledge, Trooper fuel pumps are NOT protected, YET.

[choptop0130]

Well guys not quite sure what the fix was to the problem, was reading this article for the knowledge end of the deal and BAM my 800cc sandviper did it to me that day lol,skipping, low fuel pressure, let it set, pressure comes up and goes on a min. So i go grab a new fram fuel filter and airtex pump bust it off and runs. Next day cranks well and off to the sand dunes we go, 3 hrs of riding hard and then we got to cruze some BAM does it again!!!!!!!!!! Now when i put the new stuff on it was close to empty so filled her up and took the line alose from the pump in let it pump till fuel shot out and then it started no prob, noticed that the new pump dosent have check valve and didn't change the valve from old pump to new one, have we found out that the check valve deal is the culprit or not? My engine guy is thinkin that i might need to change the fuel pump relay and all lines! raced it all year last year and never had this issue. Also was wondering if a bsd pressure regulator can cause such a drastic pressure change, it will get down to 5 psi and until you cut it of and let it set a few minutes it won't come up, take it back to trailer let it set there 15 min crank it to load GREAT fuel pressure!!!!!!!!!!! So any good idea out there with these symptoms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Lenny]

If your fuel pressure is dropping down to 5psi, then the problem is either in the fuel pump, lines, fuel filter or the regulator. I would just go ahead and get a new regulator. You could first dismantle your existing regulator to see if you can see any debri in it or maybe a cracked diaphram. I wouldn't replace it with a Joyner one but a good brand name one from your auto parts store or a company like JEGS or Summet Racing. Replace the gauge while your at it. Then see what happens. Unless your fuel tank is full of crud, the new fuel filter should be ok but check it anyway. Remove and blow out all fuel lines in the opposit direction that the gas flows. Don't blow out the filter. If the pump is running all the time, then the solenoid should be fine. The check valve in the pump doesn't do anything when the engine is running but is there to hold the line pressure going to the injector rail when the engine isn't running. that's not the problem. When you first start the engine, the computer runs the fan and fuel pump for a second or two to build rail pressure. this check valve holds that pressure for a bit until you start it. I find that on mine it holds for only a matter of minutes as it slowly losses its pressure. They may all do that but it isn't an issue. If this doesn't work, I would look at a new pump but first check the flow rate of your current pump with it hooked to a regulator so you can hold it at its operating pressure and also try your old pump again.

Lenny

[showa]

I believe my problems were caused first by contaminated fuel gumming up the first, tired fuel pump. Then the same stuff gummed up the second pump which I sent to kinarfi for autopsy. It also gummed up the Bosch which lead me to change fuel, fuel lines and filter. All appears good now. Never thought about changing the regulator but I'll keep Lenny's suggestion in mind.

As far as the check valve goes, I noted the it was non functional, and I had been having trouble starting it for awhile.

My thoughts on this are the check valve keeps some fuel in the pump for start up lubrication and possible minimal back pressure to help keep the pump primed.

When I installed the second pump without the valve, it was hard starting.

Installed the Bosch with an inline check valve and it started about the same until it gummed up. I also had installed the valve about 6 inches from the end of the valve and up-hill.

Changed fuel, lines, cleaned out pump with carb cleaner, installed valve as close to pump as could and it all works like a charm now, even after sitting for a few days. I also installed a direct power switch to the pump bypassing the standard wiring. I now turn on off pump with toggle like a race car and it runs constant when starting. I wanted to eliminate any chance of a relay problem causing more headaches. A separate toggle switch for the pump may not be for everyone but I am used to having to turn on off multiple switches to start/ stop a vehicle from racing.

I am not sure my thoughts are correct but it is working. Plus I can't imagine any manufacturers putting the valve on their pumps if it wasn't needed for some reason. Could save them money.

Anyways just thoughts from a non-mechanic, engineer, etc... Just my experience and thoughts.

[showa]

Choptop0130'

I would tend to trust Lenny on this one. Mine wouldn't even start to pump fuel to begin with so you may have a plugged or bad regulator.

[Guest Lenny]

Your getting pretty careless if you start trusting me too much. Hadn't thought about the check valve keeping the pump primed. I keep thinking that the valve was on the outlet side of the pump but I may be remembering wrong. If it's on the inlet side, then Showas correct about helping to keep the pump prinmed. It still needs to hold the pressure for starting I beleive. However, Showa gets a demerit for not coming to the Jamboree.

Lenny

[choptop0130]

talked to casey at JMC today and said that alot of joyners get a film in their tanks from this that and the other and has even seen where the plastic was still in the inside of the tank where it wasn't removed during manufacturing! WOW GO FIGURE, last year i had to drill the locking gas cap off of my tank and so to clean it out and see if debris was in there i poured it thru a paint strainer and wala there was some slimy film in the tank that was cought in the paint filter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will take the tank forward apart in the next few days and go thru it all, will report my findings as soon as i know! Thanks all for the heads up on all the info!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh by the way, we didnt make the last race, broke a axle loading into the trailer march 3rd. Going again the 31st and try it again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest Lenny]

Sorry to hear you didn't make the race but we will be cheering you on in the next one.

Lenny

[showa]

If your going to tear out all that and with the racing, I'd be looking at a true fuel cell to replace the tank.

And at least add a tip over valve to the tank vent line.

Lenny,

I haven't missed this years Jamboree yet....

Although I did miss a mini buggy meet in Logandale in February. Would have been fun running with some Joyner and Roketa and a bike engined buggy. ( buggynews.com)

Oh well, ill get my retirement schedule figured out some day.

[showa]

The check valve is on the output side of the pump. I don't quite understand it but it seems the pump likes it.

[choptop0130]

Well the results are in..................................the fuel injection sump in the bottom of my gas tank was torn aloose from the bottom of the tank and was turned catty corner in the gas tank, was holding the fuel gauge at about 3/4 a tank and wasn't even close. I had another tank that i had from a sand viper we put a zx1400 bike motor in left over so i gave it a real good cleanig and installed it into the racer, so we will see if that was the culprit next weekend at the races, ran well around the property so cros your fingers that's what it was, were loaded and ready to race next weekend, wish us luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!