Getting more power

[Guest Lenny]

I had recently found that I had a setting in my Megasquirt controller set wrong. It was a setting that controls how fuel is added when it is warming up but the way I had it set made a big change in how the handled the regular running fuel. When set correctly it should always be at 100 or better. I had it set at 6. I started over from scratch and loaded the newest controller firmware and retuned. Lickly I was able to use the same Air/Fuel ratio tables so I didn't have to give up the dyno work that gave me 121 hp. And that was with things set wrong. After the change, I gained a noticable increase in low end torque and power plus I was able it to run much better at low rpms.

Going to be riding on BLM land requires a spark arrestor so I stopped in Las Vegas on my way down to Parker and picked up one. Its a nice stainless steel muffler about 10" long with spark arrestor and made for better preformance. I removed my Harley davidson muffler and replaced it with the new one. Wow what an increase in low end power it added to the increase above. As result I decided to eliminate the Cat Converter and run just the muffler for less back pressure yet. I made a new flange with stub pipe to bolt on where the Cat Converter was and mounted the new muffler to it. It's a straight shot out now. Haven't tuned it yet so don't know how much it will help. Changing the muffler changes the controller table requirments. Will start tuning tomorrow, excited about it.

To get to the more power point this thread referred to, I found something wrong I never looked at before. The flange, that is welded to the end of the exhaust header pipes, has a hole through it that is about 1/4" smallert then the tubing ID it is welded to. This has produced a large step that the exhaust gases has to jump up over. This is causing a serious amount of restriction to the escaping exhaust gases. The step causes heavy turbulance that really necks down the exhaust effective pipe size. I have corrected mine and feel that those that make this correction will see a noticable increase in power at all rpms. Gosh, on the stock unit, the exhaust has to hit up against severe mis-alignment of the ports (big steps here too) going from the head to the header pipe and then has to hit up against another wall when leaving the header pipe. This isn't saying anything about the badly mis-aligned intake ports. There is a lot more power in that engine just from porting it correctly from intake out through the exhaust.

Lenny

[ricksrb]

I had recently found that I had a setting in my Megasquirt controller set wrong. It was a setting that controls how fuel is added when it is warming up but the way I had it set made a big change in how the handled the regular running fuel. When set correctly it should always be at 100 or better. I had it set at 6. I started over from scratch and loaded the newest controller firmware and retuned. Lickly I was able to use the same Air/Fuel ratio tables so I didn't have to give up the dyno work that gave me 121 hp. And that was with things set wrong. After the change, I gained a noticable increase in low end torque and power plus I was able it to run much better at low rpms.

Going to be riding on BLM land requires a spark arrestor so I stopped in Las Vegas on my way down to Parker and picked up one. Its a nice stainless steel muffler about 10" long with spark arrestor and made for better preformance. I removed my Harley davidson muffler and replaced it with the new one. Wow what an increase in low end power it added to the increase above. As result I decided to eliminate the Cat Converter and run just the muffler for less back pressure yet. I made a new flange with stub pipe to bolt on where the Cat Converter was and mounted the new muffler to it. It's a straight shot out now. Haven't tuned it yet so don't know how much it will help. Changing the muffler changes the controller table requirments. Will start tuning tomorrow, excited about it.

To get to the more power point this thread referred to, I found something wrong I never looked at before. The flange, that is welded to the end of the exhaust header pipes, has a hole through it that is about 1/4" smallert then the tubing ID it is welded to. This has produced a large step that the exhaust gases has to jump up over. This is causing a serious amount of restriction to the escaping exhaust gases. The step causes heavy turbulance that really necks down the exhaust effective pipe size. I have corrected mine and feel that those that make this correction will see a noticable increase in power at all rpms. Gosh, on the stock unit, the exhaust has to hit up against severe mis-alignment of the ports (big steps here too) going from the head to the header pipe and then has to hit up against another wall when leaving the header pipe. This isn't saying anything about the badly mis-aligned intake ports. There is a lot more power in that engine just from porting it correctly from intake out through the exhaust.

Lenny

Lenny,

Thanks for the info. Can you give us the info on the spark arrestor? where to purchase, cost and is it available online?

Thank you,

[bigdan120]

Hey Lenny!

The 121 Hp your getting is from just adding your Mega squirt?

[Guest Lenny]

For the muffler I have see: http://www.sidebysidesports.com/empi1071.html?utm_source=googlepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=18500979626&utm_content=pla

I'm using the 10 muffler with seventeen 4" disks. It comes stock with 10 disk. The extra disk are about $3.50 each. You may not need extra disk. I'm producing somewhat more exhaust then a stock Trooper. This one is not stamped USFS approved. I needed one and couldn't find a USFS approved one quickly. They are available. I figure that as long as its the same as an approved one and I look so pethetic I would get away with it.

Bigdan120, I have lowered compression (so I can run premium pump gas) and run a supercharger along with the head ports, and the intake and exhaust maniflods being fully ported. I also have a torque cam. I think that if I were to bring it back to my dyno guy now, I could get 150 to 160 hp. His first tune was kept conservative. I didn't want to push the engine too far seeing as no one else has tried this hp range. I also limit my rpms to 5700. I've run it long enough to now feel confident that the engine is a good strong design and would take more hp without problems. If I were to have the crank 'strength treated' and went to stronger rods and pistons allowing me to limit my rpms at around 7000, I feel I could get maybe 175 to 200 hp. Its already fast so I don't need more hp. What I'm looking for is diesel like low end torque and I'm getting lots of that.

Here is an arrestor that is USFS approved: http://www.dragtimes.com/parts/Offroad-Spark-Arrestor-VW-Dune-Buggy-Sand-Rail-Exhaust_170302041924.html

Lenny

[bigdan120]

Thanks.... I was just checking.......I was not sure what I want to do for HP... Running low budget and I was thinking an engine and trans swap might be alot cheaper in the long run for me. I can fab. I was going to go Honda so I could go cheap upgrades but trans is on wrong side....Dang...Maybe a small V6....We will see.....I was looking at a old Turbo 4cyl Dodge acclaim.

[charlie]

Than. For all the updates!! And tips Lenny u gotta pull god head to do the exhaust wrk I take matching right?? I thought I remember reading something on here about it??!! Also the exhaust basically unbolt it and match the holes on both ends of exhaust were the meet??? Is that correct if I can get some free power with easy wrk I am all about it

[SJ-KY]

Great post!!! I dont own a joyner but I do own an XY 1100 buggy that has the same SQR-472.. I am building CAI set-up and a nice exhaust as we speak so im excited to see what type of gains i'll see. After I get everything finished I'll probably go out an do some comparisions then come back and start wiring up a Haltech Sprint 500 with there wideband controller. If you dont mind me asking Lenny, Do you know what the teeth configuration is on the trigger wheel? And do you know where I can find a correct diagram of the factory ECU pin out? I went to joyners website and the diagram looks like its correct but the pin out below looks like its for a 3yl. Figured they messed up an put a 800cc diagram under it..lol.. I plan on running my Haltech inline with the factory ECU so if I had a pin out I wouldnt have to break the harness down and re-rap it to see what goes where. Hope I dident mess the thread up and any help would be gladly appreciated..

Thanks

Stephen Jessie

[Guest Lenny]

You don't have to pull the head for the exhaust but it makes it a lot easier to get it right. You don't want to grind so much that you cut through to the water jacket. Make a gasket to fit the head perfectly and use it to determine what needs to be cut on the maniflod. Then reverse the process to get the rest of the matching out of the head side. I couldn't cut enough to get a perfect match so I added a 3/8" piece of aluminum plate to to match what was left. Remembet that for best flow, you want to always make a smooth transition form straight to curves. The intake requires you to remove the head. You can have it off in an hour and back on takes about 2 hours. Just keep track of where the shims go. with the head off, you can clean up the flow all the way to the valves. Monitor where the water jacket is real close.

Lenny

[Guest Lenny]

I'm using an EDIS ignition with a 36-1 wheel. Joyner also runs edis type but the ecu controls it wheere as I have a seperate module. Kinarfi can maybe help with the pin outs. I gave him a drawing that showed it once so maybe he still has it. I made the drawing from tracing all the wires. It pretty well covered all the ecu pin ouys. I dought there is another diagram as complete out there.

Lenny

[Kinarfi]

SJ-KY, Open up the http://www.utvboard.com/topic/392-parts-pieces-and-information-for-our-troopers-joyners/ thread and scroll to the bottom, there's a download there of the ECU pinout. As for what Lenny drew up, I'll take a look and see if I can find it.

Kinarfi

[charlie]

Thank Lenny maybe ill pull the head at some point have it done at machine shop is it easy to time the motor

[Guest Lenny]

I assume your talking about thew cam timing. Yes it is easy. There is a markon the top pully that lines up with a mark on the head and a mark on the bottom pulley that lines up with a little nub sticking out ot the oil pump housing. Just line up the marks. Be sure thay line up after you tighten the belt.

Lenny

[SJ-KY]

This is great information guys I really appreciate it and will make my Haltech install a breeze now! Thanks a bunch!! Also would you all happen to know what size injectors come in our motors? This will make life great when im building my map.

[charlie]

So Lenny in the event I pull the head and bring it to the machine shop what exactly do I want done the ports cleaned polished to match header and intake any idea spec numbers

[Guest Lenny]

You want to match the ports. I also like to open up from the head port to the valves to get the best laminar floe. This part is a feel thing. You want the air to flow taking a smooth even route to the valves. Any quick turns or edges sets up turbulance which hinders flow. Picture a bobsled trying to make it thru. No matter what part of the port you start from, You want the sled to have a nice flowing path to the valve or from the valve to the port. I wouldn't bother to polish the ports but they should be smooth. No specific spec. If I was to be looking for that last split second time advantage, I would polish.

Lenny

[charlie]

Great thnx probally won't rush into this right away but curious think I'm gonna upgrade my hiem joints first

[Guest Lenny]

Josh, If I remember correctly you were going to build a Chery engine for maximum power, like 200hp. What happened to that idea or are you still doing it? I've had good reliaibility out of my engine at 121hp and am convinced the engine is quite a strong design. I was kinda of hoping that through your work I could decide rather I could safely crank mine up more. I have my rev limiter set at 5700rpms. I would like to crank it up to 7000 or 7500 but don't dare without stronger crank, rods and pistons. My dyno graph shows the HP still going up without any signs of rounding over or leveling off at 5700.

Lenny

[Merchant Mariner]

This is great information guys I really appreciate it and will make my Haltech install a breeze now! Thanks a bunch!! Also would you all happen to know what size injectors come in our motors? This will make life great when im building my map.

I'm just going off a $hi##y memory here from all my research when I was looking to turbo charge, but I think stock injectors are 12lbs/hr, maybe 13.

[dedub]

I'm just going off a $hi##y memory here from all my research when I was looking to turbo charge, but I think stock injectors are 12lbs/hr, maybe 13.

STOCK INJECTORS ARE 10# PER HR i have a set of 19# per hr if anybody needs some $50.00

[SJ-KY]

I'm using an EDIS ignition with a 36-1 wheel. Joyner also runs edis type but the ecu controls it wheere as I have a seperate module. Kinarfi can maybe help with the pin outs. I gave him a drawing that showed it once so maybe he still has it. I made the drawing from tracing all the wires. It pretty well covered all the ecu pin ouys. I dought there is another diagram as complete out there.

Lenny

Hey Lenny if you dont mind me asking is that 36-1 trigger wheel that you are using the factory trigger wheel that came on it? or is it an aftermarket wheel you used because the Megasquirt could not fire the factory one? Im about to get head deep this weekend so any info would be helpful. Also do you know what the factory timing is set at from the factory?

[Guest Lenny]

The Trooper doesn't have a 36-1 wheel. I said it uses an EDIS type system but it fires it differently. Ford develooped the EDIS ignition which uses the wheel. EDIS ignition is called a wasted spark system. It fires 2 cylinders at once. One spark is for igniting the compressed charge and the other spark fires inbetween the exhaust and intake stroke so it does nothing. The Trooper does the same thing but it uses the rpm sensor on the flyuwheel and the cam position sensor to determine what stroke it is on. If you were to go with Megasquirt, there is a number of ignition systems you can use but the EDIS is probably the easiest and you can get a wheel and sensor off ebay. I don't know what the timing is on the stock engine but it of course will vary with load, temperature and rpms. The stock Trooper is set up for least emmisions. The nice thing about the Megasquirt is that you can adjust things including timing for max torque and hp. I can't necessarily make it run better but stronger. The stock Trooper is set to run perfectly at any temperature, barometric pressure, load and rpms but at least emmisions. You really can't outtune the big engine manufactures who can spend millions to get it just right. You can however tune it to run for a different purpose. If your extreamly knowledgable, which few tuners are, and have a dyno you can tune it near perfect but its hard to out spend the big guys. You will have to mount the wheel to the front of the engine. I welded it to the harmonic balancer but had to weld the balancer to eliminate any flex from the rubber joint. This is working fine, so far.

Lenny

[lowgear]

Can anyone tell me what controls the advance for engine timming. The crank sensor does the basic timing but does the cam sensor control the advance. I'am having trouble with my timing jumping especialy between 2000 and 3500rpm with a slight jump the rest of the way up to 5000 then it seems to advance all the way. I have already tried a new ECM and both sensors.

[SJ-KY]

Thank you very much for the information I really appreciate all the help Lenny.. Im very familiar with wasted spark but never heard it called a EDIS. Just knew that there had to be some type of a Hal-effect or relluctor type sensor to tell it when to fire since it does not have a Distributor. The Haltech ECU is more than capable to control any type of ignition I want to fire. We use this ECU on my Turbo BMW real street bike that spins a 60-2 trigger wheel 15,000+ RPMs with no problem. Plus having knock control, and a sample rate of 225 per second is great when logging data..

[Guest Lenny]

Temperature, fuel load, rpms and manifold pressure all effect timing. The computer looks at these sensors and based on the values in the spark tables, sets the timing by either advanceing it or retarding it..

Lenny

[SJ-KY]

Had a real productive weekend with my XY 1100. Got my Haltech installed an tuned. We use a DynoDynamics Dyno which usually reads 13% lower than your average Dyno Jet just to give you an idea on the #'s etc etc.. My buggie is equiped with the CVT transmission so maybe someone can chime in on comparable #'s from a stick shift/manual transmission trooper which probbaly reads a touch higher id say with the same 1100cc motor. Anyway bone stock it consistantly made 35.4-36.2 rwhp every pull(we made right at 9 pulls). Immediatly afterwards we wired our Haltech ECU and Haltech dual channel wideband and loaded up the new map. After tweaking idle and start up etc etc we began WOT pulls and made 42.8-43.5 rwhp with in about 10-12 pulls it seemed like. I think next on the list is going to be addressing the TB an Intake plenium cause it def seems there will be some nice gains in that area. The factory trigger wheel was indeed a 60-2 which is pretty common for those continental ECU's to use. All in all it seems like we picked up about 20% in power just in the tune so im really looking forward to see where we end up with minor bolt-ons and optimizing air flow before I turbocharge it.

[charlie]

How much was the cost on those mods without dyno tuning that's great 20% increase

[Guest Lenny]

The CVT is going to be less efficient then then a stick. The poeple making the CVTs used in the Nissan won't devulge efficiency values dispite being asked. A typical power loss will be about 15% to 30% on typical atv type CVTs. That may be over ridden by the fact that CVT will generally be a more optimised gear ratio for the moment where as the stick has basically one optima point in each gear where its just right. Thats depending on what your doing at the moment.

The horse power readings your getting seem extreamly low. I'm getting 121hp with about 120 foot pounds of torque. Here is the way I see it. This is somewhat guessing at the individual increases but the final numbers are actual dyno readings at the rear axels with the wheels removed. The stock engine is providing, at the wheels I'll assume, about 65hp. This is with the catalytic converter being the only thing restricting exhaust. Clean up the ports properly and open up the heads for better air flow adds say about 15% which brings us to about 75hp. I'm supercharged and the most I've seen superchargers add when done on street cars using pump gas is about 35%. That brings me up to about 101hp. I'm running the Megasquirt ECU which allows me to tune for max power as opposed to the stock computer which is tuned for least emmisions. I figure this is where I'm getting the last 20hp. My 121hp was with a Harley muffler installed. After eliminating the muffler and the catalytic converter and replacing them with a Voltswagan offroad muffler spark arrestor, I'm getting even more power. If your only getting 42hp, it seems to me something is drastically wrong.

Lenny

[SJ-KY]

Obviously all dynos read different. Most of our customers call our Dyno Dynamics dyno THE HEART BREAKER..lol because it reads about 13% lower than the popular dyno jet. I honestly dont mind cause our dyno is a load bearing unit that lets us apply load for different tuning situations. And honestly I dont get caught up in dyno #'s. I ONLY use the #s as a gauge.. As far as our buggy being off on power I dont think so. For instance a factory polaris 900 xp makes 88hp at the flywheel. On a dyno jet ive watched quite a few and they all make around 65 RWHP..STOCK... You take 13% away and thats 56ish RWHP on our dyno dynamics dyno. My friends STOCK Polaris XP 900 out runs my XY 1100 about 3-4 buggys from a dead stop up to about 65 mph. I cant put a set in stone # on drag racing but im sure he has to have at least that kind of a power difference to gap me like that. That being said we have 2 other 1100 buggys with the same cvt tranny and we all 3 are door to door so it just is what it is. Again im a racer and dont care if it goes from 10hp to 12hp or if it goes from 800hp to 960hp. When I can see + 20% across the board its going in the right direction. btw what kind of boost are you making with that supercharger? Ive watched cars go from regular street tires to soft side wall drag radials and lose 30 rwhp from the side wall flex. Id say with your same tune on 27 inch tall dirt tires at 10-11 psi your 121 rwhp would probably be in the 90-100hp range...

Charlie,

You can go to www.Haltech.com and check out the products but I run a sprint 500 which Map pricing is around 960.00 I think and I run there dual chanel wide band controller that is around 250.00.. To really take full advantage of your motor and have complete control of future modifications this a must in my opinion. I run there sport 2000 on my Turbo BMW s1000 that makes 450hp+ and it NEVER lets me down. Advanced boost control,knock controller for safety, individual cylinder timing,Seq fuel and ignition. The software is pretty user friendly compared to a Motec ,ProEFI or AEM. Let me know if you have any questions. I was a tech for them for over a year and they sponsor my Race Program so id be more than happy to be of help if you have any questions..

[Guest Lenny]

I'm running around 12 psi boost. I had to lower my compresson to about 7.5:1 to get it to run with premium pump gas. I agree, HP can be allover the map depending on how it is looked at. I run 31x10.5-15 Micky Thompson Baja Claw tires. My dyno work was done on a Dynapack by Shawn Church of Church Automotive. Here is an article he wrote comparing the Dynopack and Dynojet dynos. He actually shows his calculations. He does have an engineeering degree and his assumptions are realistic.

http://home.earthlink.net/~spchurch/id12.html

As you can see they both came out about the same but it does give a good idea of the variations between wheels on or off. He talks about a dynojet with a fixes resistance. You said yours had varialble resistance as the Dynopack has so maybe your using a different model then he tested on. Anyway it is a good article. He said the same thing you did, Its not the hp numbers but the measure of improvement from modifications efforts. I still think yours shows awfull low even though you probably know a lot more about engines then I do. Have to believe your putting out more. How heavy is your buggy? Just curious. Mine is about 1700 pounds and is still quite fast. With the rear locked, I can spin the tires at will causing it to fish tail starting at about 1500rpms or so. Not on ashphalt. Generally I can brake traction in 4th gear without too much effort. The main thing I wanted was to be able to power slide the turns even at lower rpms. I haven't dragged an XP 900 yet and I may be full of poop but I think I could blow one away. Hope I don't have to eat that one some day. Anyway, I'm sure you will enjoy Shawn's article dispite the fact that because he used Dynopack, he leans his article that way.

Lenny

[SJ-KY]

Yeah man that was a really accurate article! Seems like through out the years Ive heard that name some where but I guess my mind is going south so I cant put my finger on it..lol.. But again we use a Dyno Dynamics dyno which reads about 13% lower than the 248 DynoJet he was speaking of. In this paragraph

(Car A produces 205 hp to the hubs on the Dynapack. This would equate to between 225-230 hp at the flywheel. The same car produces 195 hp to the rollers on a Dynojet. This would equate to 222-226 hp at the flywheel. Furthermore, the difference in power matches up very well with our calculated difference due to inertial losses. And interestingly enough, we have tested just such a car on our Dynapack and a Dynojet back to back with the same results (actually 196 vs. 206 hp). where he spoke of the % a DynoJet reads lower than your DynoPack. Our Dyno Dynamics dyno reads another 13% lower than 248DynoJet and maybe thats why my #'s seem so low(not to mention the cvt taking its certain amount away on top of that). But anyway im sure even at 1700 pounds your trooper with 12lbs runs pretty awesome and id say it would be a good race with you and a 900xp where they dont have to shift and torque and power curve of a 12:5.1 compression motor comes on fast but i do think with your type of power you'll move on him on the other end! My XY Buggie weighs around 1080 pounds without me in it so it will move on the 800rzrs no problem but I think I'll need some boost to move on a 900. I'll be racing in B-class at the next Rally Raid event coming up March 16th in TN and I'll mount a GoPro on my cage and let you check it out if ya like? If you ever get a chance to post some pics or videos I would love to see your supercharger set-up on your trooper. Always up for seeing other peoples set-ups for sure.I'll have my Intake manifold finished this week and I'll try and get a few pics up as well..