Massimo Buck 400 Check Engine Light

[j.fulciniti]

5 minutes ago, T-boss 410 said:

Yeah, sounds like an oil pump issue. 

Your buddy hasn't looked at it yet?

He was out of town this past weekend and he works 4 12's Mon - Thu so I'll try and catch him next Sunday

[T-boss 410]

That's too bad. You'll have to do without until then?

I know very little about these UTV's,but if it were me I would start researching oil pumps. Might find the issue has been experienced by another owner. 

[j.fulciniti]

I plan to still use it but I'll avoid the steep hills until I can get some resolution to this issue.  

I found the oil pump here --> https://www.scautosports.com/Massimo-Parts/BUCK_400_OIL_PUMP

Edited September 28, 2020 by j.fulciniti
added link

[kenfain]

17 minutes ago, j.fulciniti said:

I plan to still use it but I'll avoid the steep hills until I can get some resolution to this issue.  

I found the oil pump here --> https://www.scautosports.com/Massimo-Parts/BUCK_400_OIL_PUMP

How long after the vehicle hits level ground, till the light goes off? Is the oil topped off with the right oil?

[j.fulciniti]

8 minutes ago, kenfain said:

How long after the vehicle hits level ground, till the light goes off? Is the oil topped off with the right oil?

Not sure.  There are 2 large hills close to my house.  Once the CEL shows, I drive right back to my garage and shut her down.  I've never continued more than a few minutes and less than a 1/2 mile. 

Perhaps I hit the hill first then continue on the flats and see what happens.

I've checked the oil every day and it is full with the factory installed oil.  It's parked in the same spot each night - no drips or spots.

[kenfain]

1 hour ago, j.fulciniti said:

 

Perhaps I hit the hill first then continue on the flats and see what happens.

That sounds like a good idea, but make sure it's at operating temp. If that doesn't work like it should. Or if you're worried about damaging it by driving it with the light on. You could try to shut it off for a couple minutes. Let the oil drain back down. Start it up, and see where it's at. You could probably test it this way first. 

1 hour ago, j.fulciniti said:

 

I've checked the oil every day and it is full with the factory installed oil.  It's parked in the same spot each night - no drips or spots.

I've heard, here on this forum, something that would lead me to believe that the oil pressure isn't very robust, even on a low mileage unit. That's something that, if true, would never be verified by the manufacturer. 

If it turns out to be the oil pressure. You'll probably be okay for now. Maybe a small change could make the difference. Something like a bit thicker oil. Or possibly a better oil pump. Either way, I'd switch to synthetic oil at the first change. 

 

 

[T-boss 410]

I wonder if there is a way to modify the oil pump to increase the pressure? Maybe a stiffer compression spring, and/or a heavier weight oil?

[kenfain]

24 minutes ago, T-boss 410 said:

28 minutes ago, T-boss 410 said:

I wonder if there is a way to modify the oil pump to increase the pressure? Maybe a stiffer compression spring, and/or a heavier weight oil?

Possibly there's the ability to use a pump from a larger motor?

 

[j.fulciniti]

Some of this pump stuff is out of my league.  I'll most likely end up at the service center.  It's under warranty but just PITA to get it there.

[T-boss 410]

You're better off to let the technician do the repairs if it's still under warranty.  But I do know that with automotive oil pumps (at least in some Mopar oil pumps), the oil pressure is set by a spring inside the pump body,and can be changed to push up the pressure or lower it, whichever you may need. That's why I was curious about the spring inside this pump.

Just something to keep in mind if needed. 

[kenfain]

2 hours ago, j.fulciniti said:

Some of this pump stuff is out of my league.  I'll most likely end up at the service center.  It's under warranty but just PITA to get it there.

If it's a design flaw, then they'll just string you along, denying it all the way. The fact is, that it does actually work. So unless you can demonstrate that it produces sub standard pressure. It probably wouldn't be eligible for warranty work, even if they have good customer service.

Because it would have to show a light while the tech is working on it. And like you've said, it works great on the flat ground. If you can put the rear up on jacks and have it come on, you'd stand a better chance to get it done.

This pump stuff is over my head as well. But you just have to take it one small step at a time. Checking specs, and measurements will answer most questions. And a lot of these questions, could also be answered by the tech, or the manufacturer. 

The first step, is narrowing it down. Having a solid idea of exactly what the problem is, will be a  good barrier against service center run around. Where they either lie and say they fixed the problem. Or say that they can't find anything wrong. 

You need to determine that the oil pressure, on a brand new machine is too low. If that is what it turns out to be. Try to get in writing, from the manufacturer, what an actual psi value is supposed to be. Versus what you can verify it is. Put in for warranty work on that. A vague issue like an unexplained light, gives them too much wiggle room. 

[kenfain]

2 hours ago, T-boss 410 said:

You're better off to let the technician do the repairs if it's still under warranty.  But I do know that with automotive oil pumps (at least in some Mopar oil pumps), the oil pressure is set by a spring inside the pump body,and can be changed to push up the pressure or lower it, whichever you may need. That's why I was curious about the spring inside this pump.

Just something to keep in mind if needed. 

Its definitely essential to get the factory authorized tech to do the work. But because of liability, they probably won't be allowed to change any factory design parameters. The best they'll be able to do, is diagnose, and replace parts.

So unless it's as simple as changing a known spring, with a factory heavier version, per some kind of factory service bulletin. They'll be bound by manufacturer contract, to keep factory specs on all work performed. The best you could hope for, is for it to actually be that simple. And the tech take pity on you, and make it happen.

OTOH, if you can show where it's short on pressure even by factory standards. They'd at the very least, HAVE to replace that spring with a new one. Maybe it's defective? 

Otherwise, I'm afraid the answer would be somewhere between; we couldn't find anything wrong. And, oh that's pretty normal for that model.

My experience with these situations, is to know exactly what it needs, or what specifically isn't working. So you know exactly what to ask for. It creates better communication, and idea of expectations. And gives them less opportunity to pass it off as normal. 

[T-boss 410]

Unfortunately, he's correct. Unless you have a friendly relationship with the tech, it's likely to be an uphill battle. You could get with Joe Breaux here. He's worked through some issues with his Massimo, having been denied service from both the seller and the company. It's not the same issue that you're dealing with, but he has a tech that has done the work on his unit, and Joe has been very helpful here.

[j.fulciniti]

Talked to the Tech at the local service center.  He suggested I change the oil and use a quality 10W40 oil made specific for wet clutches.   He said the units he's worked on have a break in oil with gas in it.  He could not understand why they do that. 

He said he's worked on many of these Massimo SxS so that gave me mixed feelings.  1 - he's experienced 2 - why is he working on many of these .....

I hope I get lucky and this solves the issue.  It's 2020, the year of hell on earth, so my expectations are VERY low. 

[T-boss 410]

As far as the tech goes, your feelings may be a bit of both. I don't know for sure, but I don't believe there are a lot of certified Massimo service centers around, so he's probably getting more business than if he were working on other makes. 

The gas in the oil thing is concerning. Maybe their attempt to spread out their supply of break in oil, or something else that they know about during the break in period that they don't let the buyer in on.

I wonder where you can purchase oil that not only meets the viscosity that the factory calls for, but is also good for wet clutches?

[kenfain]

I would put the oil in that's specified in the manual. Nothing special, unless you're going to use something special, and harder to find from now on. I would however, most likely use a synthetic. But if the current break in oil, is diluted in any way, with anything at all. Then that would easily account for your issue. 

My thought would be to use the oil that I plan to use. Because its better to know it now, while it still has plenty of warranty time left. Than to finally get fed up with mixed, semi unsatisfactory results, until the warranty is either expired, or at the very end of the service life. Because there's a good likelihood that it won't just be immediately solved. When that time comes, you'll want lots of cushion time. So they can't just immediately fold on the last day.

[Joe Toup]

Hey guys - Sorry for chiming in so late.  Haven't been on here in a while.  There is a LOT going on in this thread.  I'll see if I can help some.

Couple things I noticed.

1) @strike250 did not reply to my request for a manual, so I ended up buying one.  He may be like me and got too busy check this site frequently.  Regardless, the manual was not worth the $75 I spent.  It does little to give you useful info to troubleshoot much.  It is a paperweight.  The HISUN manual for their engine is much better.  That is where I get most of my info for troubleshooting these machines.  I can send you a digital copy if you send me a private message. 

2) The low oil pressure connection may not be worth chasing.  It is a logical thing to consider, but I seriously doubt it will result in the fix since you have good oil and you are not having a light at any other time.  I think you have something else going on. 

3) The oil for the wet clutch is a possible candidate...but I am still not convinced the 400 machines have a wet clutch.  I have not been able to confirm it is a true wet clutch.  If it is, and your oil is over due a change, that very well could be a contributing factor.  Think of the wet clutch oil as a friction modifier that is similar to what is used in a hypoid rear end differential for a limited slip set of gears.  If the friction modifier breaks down over time, you loose the friction capability of the oil.  Changing it does help.  At 1.25 quarts, changing the oil in these machines is the easiest and cheapest thing you can do first to rule it out as a suspect. 

But more likely, you may have a belt issue.  When a vehicle, ATV, UTV, etc, is going down hill, the engine is not carrying the same output load that is required to drive it.  It is basically "floating", for lack of a better way to explain it.  The wheels spin (assuming no throttle applied) thus causing the engine to be turned slightly. Meaning, the engine is not pushing the machine...the wheels are pushing the engine through friction in the driveline.  Make sense so far?   The reason the CEL might be coming on could be a few different things.  If the U-joint has play in it, or if the belt is too tight or too loose, the engine speed may have a slight variance on the output driveline.  The crank position sensor would potentially see this slop and send a false signal to the ECU that might believe the engine is experiencing a miss fire.  You could check the fault codes on the dash for a misfire (code 0351) by following the process I posted in an earlier thread for fault codes.  If you have a fault code, you can clear it using the process in the same thread.

However, I would need more information to continue troubleshooting.  

1) Are you in high gear or low gear when this happens?  Does it happen in both gears or only one?  Knowing this would help isolate it to more of a belt issue.

2) Have you tried applying throttle when going down hill instead of coasting to see if the light comes on?  If so, did it make a difference?

3) How many miles are on the machine? The belt might be worn already if you are riding it to climb hills in high gear only...with heavy loads and/or towing.  If it is loose, you may have all kinds of slop in the driveline that is causing strange things to happen when going down hill.  Just a hunch. 

4) Does it backfire when going down hill?  Try putting it in neutral and see if the light comes on while going down hill.  If you have a problem with the angle of your engine and suspect oil starvation, it would most likely still do it in neutral.  I doubt it will in neutral.  

5) My last and probably most favorite suspect for weird things that happen when engines have back pressure issues....valves!  if they lashed them incorrectly you may be having a higher than normal amount of pressure when going downhill due to the driveline load.  Think in terms of jake braking.  

As for the fault code reader and reading live outputs, that is tricky.  There are some methods out there that allow you to observe functions with your laptop.  Most are new and still being payed with.  The one I did find seems to be promising but the USB to 6-pin connector under the seat is the hard thing to find.  I will see if I can locate a source and the software needed.  The reader I built works but only to see and clear codes.  Does little else.  You can do the same thing with the key sequence on-off-on-off-on (3 times - leave on) to get codes....then on-off-on-off-on-off-on-off-on-off (5 times - fast - turn off) to reboot the ECU. 

Hit me back with the extra info and I will see if I can help you peel the onion back a little further.  

- JT

 

[j.fulciniti]

I talked to my boat guy today.  He services my Mercury 90 HP four stroke outboard.  I totally forgot he services ATVs, jet skis and other small engines. 

He said the same - use a 10W40 synthetic blend that meets the criteria in the manual.  He uses a Mercury Marine oil on my boat.  He suggested trying this product - 

https://www.autozone.com/motor-oil-and-transmission-fluid/engine-oil/quicksilver-10w-40-atv-utv-motorcycle-engine-oil-32oz/1060305_0_0 

It's  a division of Mercury Marine and the specs meet the requirements in the manual.  It also is formulated for wet clutch engines.

I grabbed 3 quarts at lunch.   It was on sale, 2 for 16.

I agree, better to resolve this sooner than later.

[j.fulciniti]

11 minutes ago, Joe Toup said:

However, I would need more information to continue troubleshooting.  

1) Are you in high gear or low gear when this happens?  Does it happen in both gears or only one?  Knowing this would help isolate it to more of a belt issue.

2) Have you tried applying throttle when going down hill instead of coasting to see if the light comes on?  If so, did it make a difference?

3) How many miles are on the machine? The belt might be worn already if you are riding it to climb hills in high gear only...with heavy loads and/or towing.  If it is loose, you may have all kinds of slop in the driveline that is causing strange things to happen when going down hill.  Just a hunch. 

4) Does it backfire when going down hill?  Try putting it in neutral and see if the light comes on while going down hill.  If you have a problem with the angle of your engine and suspect oil starvation, it would most likely still do it in neutral.  I doubt it will in neutral.  

As for the fault code reader and reading live outputs, that is tricky.  There are some methods out there that allow you to observe functions with your laptop.  Most are new and still being payed with.  The one I did find seems to be promising but the USB to 6-pin connector under the seat is the hard thing to find.  I will see if I can locate a source and the software needed.  The reader I built works but only to see and clear codes.  Does little else.  You can do the same thing with the key sequence on-off-on-off-on (3 times - leave on) to get codes....then on-off-on-off-on-off-on-off-on-off (5 times - fast - turn off) to reboot the ECU. 

Hit me back with the extra info and I will see if I can help you peel the onion back a little further.  

- JT

 

Thanks JT Answers below

1 - I only drive in high, all we do is cruise around our community roads at varying speeds.  2 are rather steep

2 - I have not as I did not want to build too much speed

3 - 268 miles no heavy loads

4 - no backfire - I'll try neutral today if I can.

Ran around the lake last night 3.8 miles on basically flat roads - just 2 small hills.  (I can easily avoid the steeps) with flawless performance.

[Joe Toup]

You can get this oil at Walmart for around $3 a quart.  Meets spec for the Hisun engines in the Massimo/Cazador/Benche 400.  And it won't break the bank.  It's in the motorcycle section.  Don't overthink oil.  The key to oil is buying one that meets spec, changing it frequently, and checking the screen for particles, loose metal, shavings, etc.  These are indicators of wear or something about to fail.  Oil will often tell you if you have an internal problem just like knocks and pings.  If you feel more peace of mind by spending extra $ on full synthetic, rock on.  I do not.  I buy conventional and change it frequently.  The detergents in conventional help these engines.  They are designed to run with conventional.  But you will always find folks that swear by synthetics.  I can rebuild an engine that has synthetic and one that has run conventional its whole life with regular changes...and there is seriously no difference.  The only time there is a difference is when people do not change it when needed.   Like when they skip the break-in oil change interval and put 268 miles on a new machine.  🙂  

[Joe Toup]

J. Fulciniti - Great clues.  Change your oil before you do anything else.  And start driving in low gear when you take those hills.  Up and down.  Not only will it extend your belt life, it will help you see if the issue is specifically tied to high gear only.  If it is and does not happen in low, your belt is most likely stretched.  These CVT clutches will wear a belt out fast if you only run in high gear.  No joke.  And if you haul a bunch of gear and/or people (do you have the dump bed or the golf cart rear seat) the extra weight will play a significant factor.  If you have the golf cart rear seat, and you have been hauling 4 people....you may have stretched the belt running only in high.  It happens.  But...we are still troubleshooting.  I am interested in knowing what happens when you roll down hill in neutral...and in low gear too.   Give it slight throttle going down hill.  You won't hurt it more than already have if the belt is the issue.  If you are running 5, 10, 15 mph consistently, you should always be in low gear.  High gear on a CVT is meant for 25mph and/or flat land, no mud, and no loads. 

268 miles...you should have changed the oil three times by now.  25 miles, 100 miles, 250 miles.  Then every 500 and your machine will last forever. 

 

1 - I only drive in high, all we do is cruise around our community roads at varying speeds.  2 are rather steep

2 - I have not as I did not want to build too much speed

3 - 268 miles no heavy loads

4 - no backfire - I'll try neutral today if I can.

Ran around the lake last night 3.8 miles on basically flat roads - just 2 small hills.  (I can easily avoid the steeps) with flawless performance.

[j.fulciniti]

Well then their owners manual is full of POOP. 

Page 9.1 Vehicle Break in Period. 

Several comments about taking it easy and checking oil daily.  I followed every one of their 7 recommendations. 

Item 7. word for word below 

Please replace the engine oil and filter, after driving for 20 hours or 500 miles.

I'll get that oil changed asap.  

[Joe Toup]

No doubt the manual stinks. There is no filter on this engine. The manual is misleading. It was probably written for the 500 model that has an oil filter. The engines in the 400’s don’t use a filter which equates to no real filtration.  They should have updated the manual as such with better intervals IMO. The HISUN engine is a finicky little beast. Like most single cylinder engines, it breaks in fast.  While doing so, there is a significant amount of microscopic gunk that gets caught in the oil.  No filter other than a screen means it gets recirculated thru the engine and has the potential to carry harmful particulates inside places it should not remain.  My first oil change at 25 miles...I found all kinds of little bits in the oil.  The second change not so much, but some nonetheless.  Had I not changed it for 250+ miles, no telling how many of those little foreign bits and flakes of metal would have recirculated through the engine causing damage.  The solution is, we need to exercise a little more due diligence during break-in periods.  Oil changes need to be done more frequently.  Extremely doubtful you did any damage to your engine.  Just get the oil freshened up before anything else.  Change it often. It’s your machine’s underwear.  Don’t let it get funky!  
- JT

[kenfain]

2 hours ago, j.fulciniti said:

Well then their owners manual is full of POOP. 

Page 9.1 Vehicle Break in Period. 

Several comments about taking it easy and checking oil daily.  I followed every one of their 7 recommendations. 

Item 7. word for word below 

Please replace the engine oil and filter, after driving for 20 hours or 500 miles.

I'll get that oil changed asap.  

No matter which type oil you decide on, it's going to be the new normal. So pick one you can be happy with. The one you linked was eight  bucks a quart. That's premium oil price. So, at that price, you can pick most any exotic brand you like. You can think beyond the  autozone brand. But if you like that one though, it's as good as any. You can always switch brands later. Conventional oil works just fine. I use it exclusively in my daily driver. But I'd probably use synthetic in a new s×s. 

It probably needs changing either way. So get back to us, and let us know how it went. And if it's still even an issue.

I think it'll make a difference, but you'd probably need an oil pressure guage, to tell if it really helped. Because things like that, typically don't make a radical difference. But will it be enough to keep that light off? I'd say that the odds are good. 

 

[j.fulciniti]

After busting my knuckles 12 times, I could not get the drain plug off.  Of course, my ramps are at my brothers house 40 miles away.  I'll have to table  this issue until later next week as I'll be out of town for several days.

Thoughts from the posts above.  I do not believe the 2020 Buck 400 model has the Hisun engine mentioned above.  It's Chinese for sure but I read that Massimo ditched that engine in 2018 or 19.  There is some mention of belts  which I gather means drive belts.  This unit has a shaft drive.  

Drove up 2 steep hills in low and came down both in neutral.  NO CEL. 

Drove up a steep a 3rd time in High and came down in neutral - NO CEL. 

Hill #4 up in high and down in high - you betcha - CEL came on. 

Drove back to the garage, let her sit running for a few minutes, CEL went off. 

To be continued ............

[kenfain]

I highly suggest that you install a valve for draining the oil. I use a fumoto valve, but there are others. Makes draining oil much easier, cleaner, simpler, faster. Be advised that they sometimes/usually have clearance issues with skid plates though. Others have had to cut a hole for clearance. Yours might have a good alignment between the access hole and the drain hole.

As far as the light goes. Here's a couple of other things to try. Going downhill in low. And try it in neutral again, only stop on the hill, for a moment. Also try making a u-turn, and point it back uphill, if it goes off, then,try driving uphill from there. In all cases, I'd be careful not to allow that light to remain lit, any longer than the minimum possible. You might find that coasting downhill is the best way to go. 

My guess would be that the oil pick-up tube is favoring the rear of the sump. So when you're pointing down, it's high and dry. 

This might be important for long term engine health. For example parking the machine for awhile. Would mean pointing the nose uphill. To avoid a dry start. 

[Mackc]

5 hours ago, kenfain said:

I highly suggest that you install a valve for draining the oil. I use a fumoto valve, but there are others. Makes draining oil much easier, cleaner, simpler, faster. Be advised that they sometimes/usually have clearance issues with skid plates though. Others have had to cut a hole for clearance. Yours might have a good alignment between the access hole and the drain hole.

As far as the light goes. Here's a couple of other things to try. Going downhill in low. And try it in neutral again, only stop on the hill, for a moment. Also try making a u-turn, and point it back uphill, if it goes off, then,try driving uphill from there. In all cases, I'd be careful not to allow that light to remain lit, any longer than the minimum possible. You might find that coasting downhill is the best way to go. 

My guess would be that the oil pick-up tube is favoring the rear of the sump. So when you're pointing down, it's high and dry. 

This might be important for long term engine health. For example parking the machine for awhile. Would mean pointing the nose uphill. To avoid a dry start. 

Kind of fantasizing here, (bought a Buck 400 with 208 miles less than a year old runs fine so far, been reading on this forum.

Since  I can't lie down on the ground (Had a broken hip and being old and lame) withthe oil pump with drain is at the rear of the sump, would it be okay to use the winch and pull the front of the UTV up at a 45 degree uphill angle drain the oil ,replace the plug, let it down with the winch and fill it with motor oil?  Also where could one of the Fumoto valves be purchased online?

[Joe Toup]

The engine does have an output shaft.  The belt is internal (you can’t see it) and drives the clutch.

sounds like you may be close to figuring out the CEL.  The oil pickup tube seems extremely logical. 

Keep at it and let us know what you find out. 

[kenfain]

19 minutes ago, Mackc said:

Kind of fantasizing here, (bought a Buck 400 with 208 miles less than a year old runs fine so far, been reading on this forum.

Since  I can't lie down on the ground (Had a broken hip and being old and lame) withthe oil pump with drain is at the rear of the sump, would it be okay to use the winch and pull the front of the UTV up at a 45 degree uphill angle drain the oil ,replace the plug, let it down with the winch and fill it with motor oil?  Also where could one of the Fumoto valves be purchased online?

No reason why the winch idea wouldn't work. As long as it drains towards the back. They also make suction tubes for removing oil through the dipstick. I've never had much luck with that though. But it was more about lack of technique, and not having the proper tool for the job. Besides I prefer the drain method. 

Fumoto valves can be bought through Amazon. Or you can call them direct. You'll need to know what the thread size, and pitch is for your drain plug. They make several styles. I use the short nipple style, and it takes an adapter to connect to a hose. Fumoto sells both, they're cheap enough, but hose can be found locally. But you would need the hose connector to use a hose. 

[j.fulciniti]

I like the idea of the Fumoto Valve but got to thinking - which is dangerous for me. 

Since this unit does not have a filter, one would still have to remove the entire valve to access the screen to clean it.  Other than a much easier and cleaner oil drain, do you think that defeats the purpose on this particular engine?

After I do my first oil change and make a mess, maybe I'll appreciate the valve A LOT more.    I have plenty to learn as this is my 1st UTV so I truly appreciate all the feedback and posts.