What do you do when

[Travis]

17 minutes ago, Joe Breaux said:

dont knock it, thats how he got Wilma in the backseat

LOL!

[cliffyk]

20 hours ago, Travis said:

I don't think i posted this, but the other day when it acted up, i unplugged the trigger wire, and got a screwdriver and went from the BIG + on the Starter solenoid, and shorted to the trigger TAB on the starter solenoid. And of course that big + is able to provide more amperage than the trigger is.

it started right up. and the way this starter system works is when the trigger gets voltage, it pulls the solenoid in and the solenoid has a piece that pushes the starter gear out to mesh with the flywheel, now of course the flywheel and starter gear aren't going to be properly aligned every time, so the starter gear is free to spin  one way independent from the starter shaft.  If the solenoid is getting enough power through the trigger, it should be enough force for the gear to move enough to mesh with the flywheel, i think instead the trigger isn't pulling the solenoid hard enough and when it isn't meshed just right, it can't overcome that friction.

I could just start doing like Fred Flintstone.... cut the floor board out of it, LOL

I am surprised the starter uses  an automotive style solenoid operated pre-engagement type drive. Most modern bikes and such  have constant mesh starter drives with one-way clutches somewhere  between the starter and the crankshaft--the starter can turn the engine but the  engine cannot turn the starter.

Nonetheless, from what you describe it's obvious there is some connection/component in the starter switching circuit that is not delivering sufficient power to pull in the starter solenoid  and engage the drive pinion or electrical contacts to power the motor--that's progress. Now completely disassemble the starter switching circuity wiring, clean all connections, and examine all components and wiring. If the starter itself is not the problem than it has to be a problem in either the high current feed to the starter or the control circuit.

It's a "ground up" restoration of the starter wiring...

 

 

 

[Travis]

I ohmed the 2 wires that come from the key switch to the relay,

Both showed 00.1 ohms, 

Keep in mind this didn't test the key switch as the switch plugs in to the harness, so i had to in plug it and measure from  the female harness end to the relay plug in end.

 

[Travis]

Same for the trigger wire from the relay plug in to the end of the wire at the starter.00.1 ohms

[Travis]

i also checked voltage on the 2 wires going from the key switch plug in, to the relay plug in, when i turn the key on, it shows 12.45 volts, when i turn to start it goes up to what the battery reads currently, 13.2.  same for trigger.

of course who knows how many amps it's getting, its probably not a whole lot of amperage, its only 18 or 20 gauge wire. so probably around 4 amps or so?

One thing i can say for certain, is after replacing the big  main + cable, a few weeks ago, the issue is nowhere near as persistent as it was for awhile.

[Joe Breaux]

is it possible your ground cable is just as bad?

[Travis]

13 minutes ago, Joe Breaux said:

is it possible your ground cable is just as bad?

new cable there also

[Travis]

okay so this is funny,

Starter clicked today, so  i decided to, while the was held in START, to wiggle some wires around, first i started where the ignition switch plugs in, no worky, then wiggled and pulled at the relay, no worky. i got back to the solenoid, to wiggle the trigger wire. the trigger wire was warm and the solenoid was HOT. i couldn't lay a finger on it. starter was warm, but it felt like residual engine heat. so, wonder why the starter solenoid was that hot? the whole time of wiggling wires, before i discovered it was hot was about 10 seconds. the relay was also a bit warm. i felt of the main + and - cables on the battery and they were cool.

EDIT:

Went out to start it again, and it hit, so i held the key down for about 15 seconds and it didn't get hot, like before.

[Travis]

I ordered a knock off ignition switch the other day, supposed to be here in a few days.

[Travis]

So i guess if the ignition switch don't work i'll start on new wires for the starter circuit and connections.

[kenfain]

You should carry your multimeter on the mule. Next time it does it, test that solenoid again. While it's doing it. I still think there's a pretty good chance it's a bad solenoid. That thing getting hot seems suspicious, since everything else is pretty much  new.

[Travis]

It's done it with 3 different solenoid, but that is a good idea. Test, don't assume.

 

[kenfain]

30 minutes ago, Travis said:

It's done it with 3 different solenoid, but that is a good idea. Test, don't assume.

 

If you can establish that it's working properly, while the mule still doesn't start. You can move on to the next test. But a bad solenoid does sometimes cause these exact symptoms. And the solenoid did get hot. I'm pretty sure it isn't supposed to do that. 

Considering how the solenoid works internally handling a good amount of current to the starter. There's only a couple ways that it could make heat. 

High current draw, or some kind of short internally. I'm certain that it's not current  draw, since the starter wasn't  turning at that point. So it seems some kind of short is all that's left. Though I have no idea how it could be the same across several solenoids. 

When you install the switch, you should inspect, or even replace that trigger wire. Maybe there's crud inside the terminal. Or something like a nick in the wire. Maybe an intermittent short.

[cliffyk]

I think we need to establish a taxonomy for this discussion--specifically re: the often misused term "solenoid".

Classically a solenoid is an electromagnetic device in which current flowing through a coil attracts an iron armature to create motion--not specifically an electrical switching relay, though all such devices are technically solenoids. Solenoids do mechanical work often without switching contacts. Remote door and trunk locks are activated by solenoids typically with no switching function.

Umfortunately in automotive terminology it has come to be the term for the high current relay that switches power to an engine's electrical  starting motor--with no other function. However in the instance of the 2001 Mule which has a somewhat "old school" (for a motorcycle type engine) pre-engagement drive starter the solenoid has two functions: 1) to mechanically position the starter's pinion gear into mesh with the engine's flywheel; and 2) to close electrical contacts to supply power to the starter's armature. Here's what that puppy looks like:

The big round thingy on top of the starter motor is this starter's solenoid. Battery power is permanently (I.e. not switched) supplied directly to the topmost large terminal--the bottom-most terminal is connected (through brushes) to the armature. The small 1/4" male spade connector is where power is applied to activate the solenoid so that it will push the pinion gear into engagement with the flywheel, and close the main electrical contacts connectin the top and bottom terminals to power the starter motor.

Typically is this configuration there is another somewhat high capacity relay that switches power to the starter's solenoid. these other relays are also often called "starter solenoids" which can and often does lead to confusion in trouble-shooting discussions. I do not have a 2001 Mule schematic at hand, however I suspect it might included such a high capacity relay for supplying +12 V to the starter's solenoid. In our discussions we need to make sure we differentiate the two--perhaps "starter relay" and "starter solenoid".

Further confusion comes about because with the contemporary constant mesh starters there is typically a remote mounted high current relay often  also called (sometimes even  in factory parts lists) the starter solenoid where technically it is just a high current relay.

Starter mounted solenoids can of course bed replaced ad hoc, but typically they are an included  component of a new stater.

[Travis]

[cliffyk]

Cool... Pretty much as I expected it to look. That neutral switch could be a culprit too--a simple test would be to jump or connect that light green wire at the neutral switch to ground. That will bypass the switch ruling it out as a bad guy (or proving it to be the bad guy)...

[Travis]

I actually replaced it last year due to it went bad, as it totally cuts power to the solenoid at the relay.

But i will try that.

[Dan B]

It's extremely common for solenoids to switch electrical contacts through magnetic forces.  We call them relays and contactors.  A solenoid can't do any work unless the iron core is connected in some way (mechanically or through magnetic attaction) to a device.  Just about every electrical appliance in your home, your car, your water heater, your AC unit has a relay or two.  Without solenoids closing relay contacts, that switch would have to be designed with extremely heavy contacts and run ALL of the battery power directly to the starter (which is technically a motor, not a starter).  It boils down to a matter of semantics and generally accepted terms for laymen.  Engineers view these much differently.

[cliffyk]

That's  pretty much what I thought I said.. My specific point was  that we (and I am as guilty as anyone) have been using the term "solenoid" to refer to both the electro-mechanical device on the starter motor that both causes the starter motor drive pinion to engage AND closes the heavy duty contacts (typically a copper disk and the terminal bolts heads) to switch power to the motor. This has caused confusion in the discussion.

-cliff- (MSME MIT '71)
PhD ME MIT 2019--how I spent  the first three years of my retirement

 

 

[Joe Breaux]

A solenoid can be seperate and apart from the actual starter... example, older model FORDs  and even my Hondas have solenoids under the seat 

[Travis]

 

10 minutes ago, Joe Breaux said:

973133359016

Watcha getting from California? a present? FOR ME? AWW SHUCKS

[Travis]

Here's my personal terms for the following items,

RELAY

SOLENOID

[Joe Breaux]

30 minutes ago, Travis said:

 

Watcha getting from California? a present? FOR ME? AWW SHUCKS

lol  damn computer wouldnt paste the picture... it was the " solenoid " on my little Honda Recon ...... I just had to clean it recently when it started the CLICK CLICK disease ...   But I get cliffs point, you hear solenoid, you think GM starter motor

[Joe Breaux]

in a related story, my damn Massimo is still running flawlessly.. I am simply astounded .. I ran it all weekend . probably put 100 plus miles on it in the mud trails and the woods at my place at Whiskey Bay .. It really does well in 4wd in heavy mud .. never ran hot at all.... could it be that once you blend a few  quality YAMAHA parts with HISUN , you get a pretty decent machine???  who knows , but for now I am pretty happy with it .. Still HATE the  Massimo  Corporation  tho.. that wont change.. 

[Joe Breaux]

1 hour ago, cliffyk said:

That's  pretty much what I thought I said.. My specific point was  that we (and I am as guilty as anyone) have been using the term "solenoid" to refer to both the electro-mechanical device on the starter motor that both causes the starter motor drive pinion to engage AND closes the heavy duty contacts (typically a copper disk and the terminal bolts heads) to switch power to the motor. This has caused confusion in the discussion.

-cliff- (MSME MIT '71)
PhD ME MIT 2019--how I spent  the first three years of my retirement

 

 

well, thats impressive but...as A world renowned expert on bullshit, myself,  I received my PHD in Bullshitology from Harvard University ,in 1976, and have worked 40 years as a Bullshit Consultant specializing in UBO ...(Utter Bullshit Optimization).... for democrat  politicians, Automobile corporations, and PR agencies and BASS FISHERMEN  worldwide. My Degree is at the cleaners or i would post it 

[cliffyk]

I have never before in my life had the content and purpose of a post so poorly understood--must be getting old.

[Joe Breaux]

8 minutes ago, cliffyk said:

I have never before in my life had the content and purpose of a post so poorly understood--must be getting old.

clearly, we both must be getting old,  and YOU obviously  misunderstood mine .. no insult was directed at nor  intended for  you.. just a little humor .. sorry if I did not make that clear to you..  

[T-boss 410]

1 hour ago, Joe Breaux said:

in a related story, my damn Massimo is still running flawlessly.. I am simply astounded .. I ran it all weekend . probably put 100 plus miles on it in the mud trails and the woods at my place at Whiskey Bay .. It really does well in 4wd in heavy mud .. never ran hot at all.... could it be that once you blend a few  quality YAMAHA parts with HISUN , you get a pretty decent machine???  who knows , but for now I am pretty happy with it .. Still HATE the  Massimo  Corporation  tho.. that wont change.. 

Joe, you're the only person I've ever known to be pissed that your machine was running well 😉

[cliffyk]

Joe, I likely overreacted--it is a topic I am a bit peevish about--on Labor Day of 2019 the family had a celebration of my  accomplishment when my drunken 27-year-old step-grandson¹ stood in the centre of it all, and declared for all to hear;  that he "didn't think it was that big a deal"

His mother ad father very nearly died right there on the spot.

My wife says I bring it up too often--she's probably right (why are they so damned right so often?)--but for me it represents the likely "end posts" of nearly 50 years of work and aspiration--it is an accomplishment I am quite, and no doubt overly; proud of...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

¹ - Whose life accomplishment after dropping out of UCF is being a part-time barmaid at Starbucks in Orlando.

[Travis]

Going on 3 days with no problems.

Freaking weird. Put about 12 starts on it today