What do you do when

[Travis]

starter was hitting again this morning, 3 times before it would engage,  i'm also thinking of replacing the circuit relay, kawasaki wants $43, used around $30.... Just wondering if i could go to O'rielly or someplace and just get a 4 pin relay?

[Joe Breaux]

The drug companies weigh the possible deaths lawsuit cost to  the massive profit from 20 yrs of drug sales.. guess which one wins?   Much like Massimo and their WARRENTY denials .. The profit from unsuspecting buyers  vs the lost sales of repeat customers ..and we all know "theres a sucker born every minute"

[T-boss 410]

Yeah,  I guess there's no limit to stupidity. 

[cliffyk]

4 hours ago, Travis said:

starter was hitting again this morning, 3 times before it would engage,  i'm also thinking of replacing the circuit relay, kawasaki wants $43, used around $30.... Just wondering if i could go to O'rielly or someplace and just get a 4 pin relay?

The one you have is used... What does it look like--is it a plan ol' 4-pin DIN type cube relay, like this?

Does it have a connection diagram printed on it? If so let us see it and we can perhaps offer alternatives.

[Travis]

Alright, i'll get some pics of the relay.

 Did some work on our driveway today, about 10 starts with no problems at all.

[Travis]

https://postimg.cc/gallery/wLXJ1KC

Here's the relay. The two on the right appear to be #2 and #4.

it does look a little dirty in there where the plugs are, but  believe me i've already tried cleaning them

[cliffyk]

iT appears to be just a plain ol' SPST-NO  (Single Pole Single Throw Normally Open) relay. The only issue I see is that the typical 4-pin "ice-cub e" automotive relay has male spade connectors same ass the OEM "socket" on your beast--but four short wires with female terminal at each end would remedy that. A really good 90A SPST relay by NTE is $8 or so.

 

 

[Travis]

8 minutes ago, cliffyk said:

 The only issue I see is that the typical 4-pin "ice-cub e" automotive relay has male spade connectors same ass the OEM "socket" on your beast--but four short wires with female terminal at each end would remedy that.

 

 

Guess i don't quite understand what you mean.

[T-boss 410]

I believe I think I know what he's talking about. A normal cube-shaped automotive relay has 4 "male" connectors, where your relay has female connectors. You could replace your old relay with a new automotive relay of the same rating, and modify it by attaching 4 short wires with female  connectors on both ends of the wires so you can connect the new relay with the area it needs to plug into. It's basic ethnic engineering 😎

[cliffyk]

Never mind--I thought this was as photo of the cable connector--I see now that it is the bottom of the relay.

 

I next thought that to connect the standard automotive "cube" relay you'd need some short patch cables with female terminations at each end.

 

 

I see now that is not the case, though you will still likely need some configuration of patch cords as the configuration of the terminals is different--unless the female terminations in the vehicle cable can be removed from the connector body to plug directly to the generic relay.

[Travis]

ah, i see what you were getting at now, it does appear the female connectors can be removed/change places with on the wiring harness if i need to.

Thanks

[cliffyk]

Cool.. I have used that NTE 90 A relay for over 5 years with an onboard 2 HP compressor (that pulls over 120 A at startup) on my Tacoma. Never a problem of any sort.

[cliffyk]

NAPA also has some higher quality cube relays--they can get a bit pricey though...

[Travis]

i was just doing some reading online, about starter relays and came across this article saying

"The problem with a failed starter relay is that sometimes it works brilliantly and in other cases it does not work at all. 

If you start your car once and it starts without a fault, then try  start it again and it won’t start at all, then you are  more than likely dealing with a faulty starter relay."

 

 

 

[Travis]

i'm thinking about trying this one, pins appear to be in the correct order, almost looks like an exact copy of the Denso relay on it now. and if it doesn't work, it's only $9 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Car-Motor-12V-SPST-Relay/dp/B0177ANEQ2/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=4+pin+relay+spst&qid=1615345807&sr=8-3

[cliffyk]

I think that's a pretty silly generalized conclusion for anyone to make--it could very well be the starter solenoid (relay) however it could just as possibly be any of a  number of other issues--bad brushes or shorted amature in the starter, poor connection(s) anywhere in the starter low or high current power  or ground, a weak cell in the battery, or a small gnome with indigestion  living in the crankcase.

 

"The last time any machine starts and runs properly may have been the last time it will start and run properly"
-George Monroe- a Scottish Stationary Steam Engineer and my maternal grandfather.

[Travis]

6 minutes ago, cliffyk said:

I think that's a pretty silly generalized conclusion for anyone to make--it could very well be the starter solenoid (relay) however it could just as possibly be any of a  number of other issues--bad brushes or shorted amature in the starter, poor connection(s) anywhere in the starter low or high current power  or ground, a weak cell in the battery, or a small gnome with indigestion  living in the crankcase.

 

"The last time any machine starts and runs properly may have been the last time it will start and run properly"
-George Monroe- a Scottish Stationary Steam Engineer and my maternal grandfather.

I'm doubting it's internal in the starter, as it's done it with 3 starters (one old one that had been on for 5 years, a chinese knock off, then the Arrowhead starter i recently got), guess next i'll replace the connector at the starter solenoid, and then try the relay. I doubt it's a bad cell in the battery, as i would think that would appear during cranking also, and when it cranks, it cranks it over fast. no drag or anything.

[Travis]

3 minutes ago, cliffyk said:

 or a small gnome with indigestion  living in the crankcase.

 

 

 

Think i could pour some pepto bismol in the crankcase?

[cliffyk]

I agree, after 3 starters it's beginning to look like some other problem.

With a machine of the vintage of  yours I would  disconnect,  clean and inspect every wiring connection in both the low and high current starter circuitry--and while doing so also test each and every electro-mechanical component (switches, relays, etc.) of same. Clean the connectors 'til they shine and reassemble with dielectric grease to prevent (or more correctly slow down) future corrosion.

Closely examine every crimped terminal/connector making certain they are tight and corrosion free--when in doubt replace the terminal/connector. Run each wire end-to-end though your hands felling for bumps in the insulation and other irregularities that might indicate internal corrosion. It is not at all unusual for even the tiniest nicks in insulation to allow moisture to enter and corrode the wire from within .

Also don't stop because you find one obviously bad connection/wire/???--even if it's so obviously bad "this has to be it"; there may be more (I can't tell you how many times over the years that one has"got me").

Above all; "Work the problem--don't just throw parts at it." (another of my grandfather's admonitions).

[cliffyk]

6 hours ago, Travis said:

i'm thinking about trying this one, pins appear to be in the correct order, almost looks like an exact copy of the Denso relay on it now. and if it doesn't work, it's only $9 bucks.

https://www.amazon.com/Car-Motor-12V-SPST-Relay/dp/B0177ANEQ2/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=4+pin+relay+spst&qid=1615345807&sr=8-3

That looks great! 40 A should be entirely sufficient--proabably fed by a 30 A fuse max anyway.

[cliffyk]

In reviewing what I wrote earlier re: full dissaasembly of everything, it occurred to me that i am normally a "don't fix it if it ain't broke" guy.

However given the age of your vehicle and the persistent nature of your problem--I believe assuming it is all broken and  proactively  "fixing" it all is called for...

[Joe Breaux]

11 hours ago, Travis said:

Think i could pour some pepto bismol in the crankcase?

Mylanta is compatiblewith moptor oil 

[Travis]

7 hours ago, cliffyk said:

Above all; "Work the problem--don't just throw parts at it." (another of my grandfather's admonitions).

Yeah, those starters are kind of heavy to be chunking around, lol!

[Travis]

no problems today.

[Travis]

Well it's probably not the relay, got the new relay in, it plugged right in, no modification required, and I had to turn the key 3 times for it to finally engage and turn over. (This was also the first time starting it today)But ill leave it on for now and keep the old one.

[Joe Breaux]

could it just be the key switch

[Travis]

4 minutes ago, Joe Breaux said:

could it just be the key switch

That's what I'm thinking next, I'm going to look at the wiring diagram , see if I can figure out which wires supply voltage to the relay, and ohm the wires, and then check voltage on it. 

New keyswitch from Kawi is $70.00 so ill probably slap a CCP part on it.

[Joe Breaux]

I bought a push button START button from Amazon for one of my boats, cost $10 .. the original old Evinrude control box keyswitch was falling apart, barely worked 1 out of 5 tries  and no longer even available......   works fine 

[Travis]

I don't think i posted this, but the other day when it acted up, i unplugged the trigger wire, and got a screwdriver and went from the BIG + on the Starter solenoid, and shorted to the trigger TAB on the starter solenoid. And of course that big + is able to provide more amperage than the trigger is.

it started right up. and the way this starter system works is when the trigger gets voltage, it pulls the solenoid in and the solenoid has a piece that pushes the starter gear out to mesh with the flywheel, now of course the flywheel and starter gear aren't going to be properly aligned every time, so the starter gear is free to spin  one way independent from the starter shaft.  If the solenoid is getting enough power through the trigger, it should be enough force for the gear to move enough to mesh with the flywheel, i think instead the trigger isn't pulling the solenoid hard enough and when it isn't meshed just right, it can't overcome that friction.

7 minutes ago, Joe Breaux said:

I bought a push button START button from Amazon for one of my boats, cost $10 .. the original old Evinrude control box keyswitch was falling apart, barely worked 1 out of 5 tries  and no longer even available......   works fine 

I could just start doing like Fred Flintstone.... cut the floor board out of it, LOL

[Joe Breaux]

dont knock it, thats how he got Wilma in the backseat