07 trooper 1100 - appears to be detonating/falls on face at 3k rpms

[M C]

Hey guys just bought a 07 trooper. Previous owner stated it ran great etc prior to clutch job then had issues. I drained tank, replaced plugs etc. found one of the injectors connectors was not connected and plugged it in. Solid 50psi fuel pressure.  It starts easier than previously on 3 cylinders but still runs very very poorly. I’m thinking the sound I’m hearing is it detonating at around 3k. It kinda sputters and falls apart. Sounds like clicking or something when it happens. I am at a bit of a loss, compression is a solid 150psi across the board with no movement. Verified spark and now am assuming all injector are functioning more or less correct as if I unplug any one it sound terrible at idle. 
 

A note, I tapped plugs at .7 manual called for .9-1.1 but that seems super over doing it but I will try adjusting them to 1.0

additionally I’ve noticed the fan in rear doesn’t turn on. 
 

anyone with any help I will be in your debt.

[M C]

Gap at 1.0 was very bad fell apart when rev. Decreases gap to .5 and seems a little better but still not right. Attached video. Not really hearing the detonation/clicking thought I was previously hearing.  Still falls apart under load at 3k and uo.

[M C]

Changed fuel filter etc. noise I thought was detonation appears to be in transaxle, maybe chain slap? The engine is cutting at 3k rpm. Perhaps limp mode. Anyone know where or how to begin diagnosing limp mode?

[M C]

Definitely spark cut/limp mode. Anyone know how to troubleshoot the sensors to figure out which one is the problem?Definitely spark cut/limp mode. Anyone know how to troubleshoot the sensors to figure out which one is the problem?

[Dan B]

Seems like your issue is related to engine speed.  Even though the fuel pressure is 50 psi, does it drop off when the engine gets to 3k?  The fuel pump can pump 50 psi but that's no guarantee that it can pump the volume.  As engine RPMs increase, more fuel is required.  Could be a partially obstructed fuel filter.  Other's on this forum have suggested a ton of other things to check - electrical grounds, battery terminals and other things too numerous to list.

[M C]

Replaced the fuel filter. Got a new pump on the way as I have no way to see if it’s dropping pressure when I’m driving it. At idle when I first start it, it revs out fine. After a minute I want to say it breaks up. Basically it gets to 3k and completely stops reving and sounds like it’s dying and bucks. This is in any gear. I did start motor and start disconnecting sensors and I noticed running difference when unplugged on almost all of the engine sensors.  I wish there was a way to test these sensors since we have no way to get codes. Feel like I’m just throwing money at it until it runs.

[M C]

I aM so f%{%{%{%ing frustrated. Replaced fuel pump, fpr and all lines just to verify it cannot be fuel system. Checked the injectors for flow and they are spraying well. I got 50psi until 3k Rpm when it cuts spark.. still fuel pressure isn’t moving. It’s like hitting rev limit or it dropping cylinders etc. is there any other forums to check? I’ve read through this and I see people talking about limp home mode from sensors but I don’t see how to test said sensors. I don’t want to waste 700$ abs 3 months waiting on them from China.

[kenfain]

Since it was running good before a clutch change. I'd suspect something happened during the fix. Have you checked the firing order? Is it possible that they got a plug wire switched? 

[M C]

Is the firing order in the manual? I didn’t notice it. I  ran multiple new grounds tonight, made no difference. I did for shits and giggles swap the o2 sensor and it runs like complete shit after swapping. Both were super sooty so I am wondering if o2 sensors can cause it to go into limp 

[kenfain]

Dunno about the manual. I've never seen one. Don't own a Trooper either. Just basic mechanical knowledge. 02 sensors are like most things, in that they can be filthy, and work great. Or slightly dirty, and not work at all. But generally speaking, they're crucial for having the correct fuel/air mix. So I'd say that it's possible for it to be the problem. 

So you'll definitely want to find out. I'd test those first, then replace either, or both, that don't test good. If they're cheap, then I'd just replace them. They're likely not interchangeable, so I wouldn't expect it to run very well when switched. 

Have you tried searching for trouble codes? It'll definitely have a diagnostic port somewhere. Or it'll probably flash code sequences using something like the clock.

[BigTver]

Change the crankshaft position sensor. And look at the camshaft sprocket, there might cut off the pin on the shaft.

[Dan B]

I don't think the firing order is a problem.  If it were, the engine would run poorly at any RPM because it would be as a result of changing the plug wires on two of the cylinders.  You'd lose 50% of the power.  A 4-cyl engine fires every 180deg.  If you swap two plug wires, then those two cylinders would fire either at the top of an exhaust stroke and/or bottom of the intake or power stroke depending upon which two cylinders were swapped.  Backfiring through the intake could be one symptom.  The standard firing order on most, but not all 4-cyl engines is 1-3-4-2.

How is the Mass Air Flow Sensor?  Is it clean. A bad MAF can cause drivability problems.  It tells the computer how much air is going through the engine.  If, at 3k RPM the MAF is saying less air is being moved than actual, the computer will not allow as much fuel as needed at that RPM.  There is a cleaner for it.  Just remembe while cleaning it, do not touch the really fine wire in the sensor.  The only thing that should touch it is the cleaner - no rags, no Q-tip, no nothing else.

Were you able to test drive it before you bought it?  Did it run good then?  If not, then I don't believe it ran good per the seller's statement.

[M C]

13 minutes ago, Dan B said:

I don't think the firing order is a problem.  If it were, the engine would run poorly at any RPM because it would be as a result of changing the plug wires on two of the cylinders.  You'd lose 50% of the power.  A 4-cyl engine fires every 180deg.  If you swap two plug wires, then those two cylinders would fire either at the top of an exhaust stroke and/or bottom of the intake or power stroke depending upon which two cylinders were swapped.  Backfiring through the intake could be one symptom.  The standard firing order on most, but not all 4-cyl engines is 1-3-4-2.

How is the Mass Air Flow Sensor?  Is it clean. A bad MAF can cause drivability problems.  It tells the computer how much air is going through the engine.  If, at 3k RPM the MAF is saying less air is being moved than actual, the computer will not allow as much fuel as needed at that RPM.  There is a cleaner for it.  Just remembe while cleaning it, do not touch the really fine wire in the sensor.  The only thing that should touch it is the cleaner - no rags, no Q-tip, no nothing else.

Were you able to test drive it before you bought it?  Did it run good then?  If not, then I don't believe it ran good per the seller's statement.

No I wasn’t able to drive it. It had a bad shaft seal on tranny from a botched clutch job.  I have not cleaned maf,  will get some cleaner today. Also see if I can find some o2 sensors that will fit since I can’t find part numbers anywhere 

[M C]

Assume there is no way to read the diagnostic codes in this thing? I found the weird 2 wire plug I assume is the diagnostic port next to battery

[kenfain]

20 minutes ago, M C said:

Assume there is no way to read the diagnostic codes in this thing? I found the weird 2 wire plug I assume is the diagnostic port next to battery

It's possibly a Delphi type plug. And while Dan B might be correct about the plug wires themselves. My point was, and is, that I'd check all the little things, like connections.

Because it sounds like the clutch was replaced by someone who knows very little about mechanical best practices. And likely didn't do much scheduled maintenance either. Also since  they obviously missed at least one connection. 

I'd replace the obviously bad things, like the 02 sensors. Give it a chance to be an easy fix. And even if it doesn't, then this needs to be done anyway, to narrow the possibilities. 

After that, I'd look at the position sensors. 

[M C]

You reckon any o2 connector with same plug/wires will be fine? I think it’s been running like shit for a while based on how much soot was on both sensors I’ve always pulled o2 sensors in cars that been running right as brown and clean.

[kenfain]

They're supposed to be interchangeable, if the plugs are the same. Since they all do the same thing, the same way, I have no reason to doubt it. But I've never put that to the test. And I'm not familiar enough with the subject to speak with any authority.

In a typical situation like this, I'd say to check stock numbers, to see if they're the same. That would give you the answer. But  in my experience, 02 sensors usually have different size pigtails, for upstream, vs. downstream. That would make the numbers different, just for that alone. 

But if for some reason, I was really motivated to go with a  generic, because of price, or availability. I'd have a good feeling about my chances. Since it can't really be anything more than a thermal switch. But unless you've found some that are really cheap. I'd suggest waiting for someone else to answer, maybe someone else has direct experience. Or maybe the local parts guy could weigh in on it. That's the sort of thing that a decent auto parts counter guy would know. 

 

[M C]

Gotcha. Yea the part numbers I found for the chery is only available in Chinese market it did say it was a Siemens sensor 

[M C]

Joyner usa told me they feel it’s fuel. Not sure what else to try as far as fuel is concerned. Filter, pump, fpr and lines all replaced. Tank cleaned and verified via clear filter that it is keeping solid fuel supply. I was running 50psi, they said 60+ recommended so I will try that tonight. Did get a map sensor on the way and a new tps. My current tps when checking resistance was ranging from 2 at close to 7 at open. I believe I had read it was suppose to be no more than 2 at open.

[Dan B]

44 minutes ago, M C said:

Joyner usa told me they feel it’s fuel. Not sure what else to try as far as fuel is concerned. Filter, pump, fpr and lines all replaced. Tank cleaned and verified via clear filter that it is keeping solid fuel supply. I was running 50psi, they said 60+ recommended so I will try that tonight. Did get a map sensor on the way and a new tps. My current tps when checking resistance was ranging from 2 at close to 7 at open. I believe I had read it was suppose to be no more than 2 at open.

The Joyner Trooper T2/T4 owner's manual says that 49.8 psi fuel pressure is normal for most applications.  50 psi is close enough.

[kenfain]

It does sound like a sensor problem, that's affecting the fuel delivery. Possibly the cpu, but probably not. Unfortunately I have no idea about what the tps is supposed to read on the resistance.

Unless you can verify that it's supposed to top out at 2, it really sounds like it's working. Two sounds a little low for the upper limit. Since it typically starts with something like a volt, or so. Just like seven volts seems a bit high for the upper limit.  Since you plan on replacing it, we'll see what happens. 

When I'm working on a car, and this comes up. The internet has all the answers. But with these things, that kind of information is harder to find.

It's a shame that the s×s manufacturers don't use the OBD2 system. It would make these kinds of diagnostic issues much simpler. 

[kenfain]

7 minutes ago, Dan B said:

The Joyner Trooper T2/T4 owner's manual says that 49.8 psi fuel pressure is normal for most applications.  50 psi is close enough.

I agree with this, 50 is close enough. And if the clear filter shows consistent delivery, I think that's probably not the problem. 

[Dan B]

With so many things that can cause the issue with your machine, let me toss one more into the mix to see if it sticks to the wall.  A plugged or restricted cat converter can also cause similar issue.  Can you disconnect the exhaust just in front of the cat converter and run the engine up to see if it may be plugged.

[kenfain]

16 minutes ago, Dan B said:

With so many things that can cause the issue with your machine, let me toss one more into the mix to see if it sticks to the wall.  A plugged or restricted cat converter can also cause similar issue.  Can you disconnect the exhaust just in front of the cat converter and run the engine up to see if it may be plugged.

I was just thinking about a clogged cat myself. Since the 02 sensors were dirty. 

But instead of disconnecting the exhaust, I'd try running it without the downstream 02 sensor first.  Might have enough flow to tell.  See if it revs? 

[M C]

I think I found it! Completely pulled entire fuel system again tonight and recleaned and rewired pump to a toggle for testing.. no dice. For Shits and giggles I dumped pressure at 100psi and it reved up mostly normal sounded then I heard it retard then drop timing.. while this is all happening I hear that random familiar sound of what I thought may had been detonation then a pop. A bb size hole next to my crank angle sensor appeared. Pulled crank angle sensor out abs the entire damn sensor is completely eaten away. They said it ran great until clutch job.. now I believe it lol.  So can I get away with just pulling the tranny apart from housing bolted to engine or do I have to pull the entire damn thing off the motor? I am Just assuming there is no access hole so I can get the remainder of the crank angle sensor out of there without pulling it apart? Makes sense those because my tachometer has been appearing super sluggish and sporadic.

[kenfain]

Great to hear it. Seems like that was mentioned a few posts back

After all the mistakes, and negligence you've discovered so far. If it were me, I wouldn't feel comfortable unless I pulled the new clutch. See what else was missed. Replace all the bearings that didn't look new. All new seals, and everything is properly torqued.

There's just too much that was missed. It's like a non mechanically inclined 15 yr. old did it on a budget. If you take it out to a rural area to ride. I'd have trust issues. 

Of course that could wait till dead winter. Giving some weeks of getting familiar with it. And a bit of fun. Not looking at it, I couldn't say about the access. But I'd suspect that you could get to it, by pulling it out part of the way. Probably be a PIA doing it that way, especially if you have large hands. But I'm sure it can be done. 

[M C]

Cps got it! Got the trash out of the transmission bell house etc. we ran 6 hours last night problem free as far as motor is concerned minus I need to increase fuel presssure back up. You can tell it is fuel starving.  That said my 5th gear started popping out a few times then it appears I have lost it all together now so here we go again. Appears to go in gear but there is nothing there it seems. Gonna check cable adjustment and if that doesn’t get it then guess I’ll have to pull the bugger out 

[kenfain]

Glad to hear you got it going!

Sorry to hear about the gear problem. Seems like there was a thread here a couple of weeks ago. Where one of the guys had a similar problem. Don't think it was fifth gear though. But it acted the same way. Sometimes stuff happens inside the transmission. Lose one pin and the gear slips out of position inside there. Easy enough to fix, if it were sitting on the bench already. But if you want to get technical...isn't everything like that?

Hopefully, yours is something easy, and on the outside. Like a branch wedged into the linkage. Or a missing cotter pin. Never heard back from the other guy, one way or another. So keep us posted, and take some pictures if you tear into it.

[M C]

My seals on the tranny are leaky as it is I may just have to pull the bastard out. Might run without it for now and enjoy it a little before I pull it all back down.

 

edit: the output shaft seals. Whoever did clutch job messed them up it looks like. What a damn mess.

[kenfain]

28 minutes ago, M C said:

My seals on the tranny are leaky as it is I may just have to pull the bastard out. Might run without it for now and enjoy it a little before I pull it all back down.

 

edit: the output shaft seals. Whoever did clutch job messed them up it looks like. What a damn mess.

I gathered from your previous posts, that there seemed to be an inexperienced mechanic involved in the clutch job. As it reminded me of my own learning curve as a teenager. Partly because of substandard tools. Partly because of lack of understanding of best practices. 

I wouldn't fully trust what's been done to this point, if you're ever planning on taking it out beyond city limits. Enjoy it as much as possible, then when time permits, a complete redo of the clutch assembly would seem to be in order.