Starting

[T-boss 410]

I guess this is one for the general forum. Does anyone experience a  slow turn over by the starter? I had a battery with a bad cell, and it was replaced. It wouldn't even turn over. Now it will start, but I have to hit the key a few times before it will spin over fast enough to start. The battery is a 330cca unit, so I would think that it would easily spin a single cylinder engine. This is for a Massimo T-boss 410. The engine is a 352cc, 25.5hp fuel injected unit. 

Where should I start looking? It's a 2019 UTV, with only 14.6 hours on it. In my mind, I can only think that the connections somewhere are loose, or the starter is not up to snuff. Could tracing the wires for the starter system be difficult? Is there a way to test the starter?

Thanks much!

[Travis]

330cca is close on the HP rating, 350cca is only good for up to 26HP.

Most Autozone stores test starters for free.

[T-boss 410]

Hmmm..., the manual calls for one with 225cca. I thought I was doing well with a rating of 330cca. 

Is there a chart or something that shows what cca is good for a hp rating of an engine? I would find that very helpful. 

[Travis]

There might be, but Orielly auto parts Lawn and Garden batteries show what HP they're good for, and 350cca is 26 or 27 HP max.

[T-boss 410]

I did some surfing on the internet for a battery, and the highest cca I could locate that would fit physically was 370. Is that the highest they go?

[Travis]

33 minutes ago, T-boss 410 said:

I did some surfing on the internet for a battery, and the highest cca I could locate that would fit physically was 370. Is that the highest they go?

depends on the Group size

[Rustynutzz]

Mine wasn't quite so hard to start, but there seemed to be a dead spot on my starter until I did my after break in service.  I swear it starts easier now with Lucas ATV oil, but it just may be me.

[T-boss 410]

My battery is a U1. I can use either a U1 or a U1R. I haven't found a battery in this group so far that is rated any higher than 350cca's.

[kenfain]

1 hour ago, T-boss 410 said:

My battery is a U1. I can use either a U1 or a U1R. I haven't found a battery in this group so far that is rated any higher than 350cca's.

Isn't the U1 a lawn tractor battery? If so, then I wouldn't expect them to go higher than 350cca. But you can measure your space available, and find something else that'll fit. Maybe something taller? When I found out that they no longer make the factory battery for my mule. I used a tape measure, and figured out which direction had some wiggle room. Then went to Walmart, and measured batteries. FWIW, the one I have  is about the same size as the lawn tractor battery, and it has 350cca. And mine is a 920cc. 3 cylinder diesel. But it costs a whole lot more than the lawn tractor battery. 

[Travis]

https://www.scautosports.com/Massimo-Parts/TBOSS_410_ELECTRICAL_M

The original factory battery is UB12350, 12V 35AH, which appears to be more of a golf cart battery..  I can't find the specs for CCA, but  i found this posted on Amazon answers by an individual, "Not really a cranking battery but according to midtronics tester 300 CCA +/- 15%."

[T-boss 410]

15 minutes ago, kenfain said:

Isn't the U1 a lawn tractor battery? If so, then I wouldn't expect them to go higher than 350cca. But you can measure your space available, and find something else that'll fit. Maybe something taller? When I found out that they no longer make the factory battery for my mule. I used a tape measure, and figured out which direction had some wiggle room. Then went to Walmart, and measured batteries. FWIW, the one I have  is about the same size as the lawn tractor battery, and it has 350cca. And mine is a 920cc. 3 cylinder diesel. But it costs a whole lot more than the lawn tractor battery. 

Yeah, it's a lawn tractor battery. I was going on what was in it when I got it. As for the measurements, the battery tray is only big enough for the U1 size battery. And with the slope of the hood, I doubt I could go any taller. I could use the dimensions of the U1, but those seem to be limited to no more than 350cca. But if that's enough to turn yours over easily, I can assume that I have some other issues to deal with. 

[T-boss 410]

Is there possibly a correlation between the rated amp hours and the cca's? I ask because some batteries don't give a cca rating, but do give an amp hour rating. 

[kenfain]

13 minutes ago, T-boss 410 said:

Is there possibly a correlation between the rated amp hours and the cca's? I ask because some batteries don't give a cca rating, but do give an amp hour rating. 

Batteries rated in ah, are typically deep cycle batteries. Not considered to be starting batteries for some reason. Although they start an engine just fine. It's something about the light discharge of starting, followed by a full charge by way of alternator, or whatever. Deep cycle apparently prefers to discharge more deeply before recharging. Hence the name. But mine came with a deep cycle battery, for starting, and it's what I replaced it with. 

As far as a correlation goes, the answer is sort of lol. I know, that when I was looking for a battery, I asked the same thing. And there's no hard rules on this. Kinda like how a gas engine is rated in horsepower. Yet a diesel is rated by ft.lbs of torque. Or something similar. Just trying to keep things simple I guess.

   If you should find a battery  that fits, but is rated in ah instead of cca. I wouldn't worry about it being a problem. But you should be able to find out if it's got enough power to do the job, by taking some time on the internet.

   There's not an abundance of information, but there is some stuff out there about the cca/ah compatibility. Seems like it was a mathematical equation to solve the riddle. Mine was 35ah, and it seems like the replacement was just under that.

  On the plus side, you should be better equipped to run more power draw accessories with the engine off, using a deep cycle battery. 

[T-boss 410]

That was an excellent explanation! The OEM battery is rated at 35ah's, and the one I just purchased is 32ah. I would think that it should be able to start it, since I don't have any aftermarket devices. It will start, but it takes a few hits on the switch to get it to spin past the compression stroke, then it will fire right up. That's the part that has me so confused. I guess I could trace the wiring for the starter and check the connections for tightness and clean them if necessary. 

[kenfain]

Checking the wiring is a good start. Checking the ground for a solid connection. Test the positive cable for resistance. Test the starter's amp draw. I'd suspect that it's a starter issue. Being the most expensive of the bunch to fix, I know that'd be my luck.

[T-boss 410]

How do I test the starter's amp draw?

[Travis]

 

[T-boss 410]

I've checked all the connections. Everything looks like new. I put a new charge on the battery, reinstalled it, and tried to start it again. Same thing. It will turn over, but it has to get past the compression stroke first. 

I see that the OEM  battery is a 35ah rating. Since I don't know how (or if) that can be converted to cca, shouldn't I be more concerned about the cca of a battery in this case?

Thanks!

[Travis]

Did you get the battery load tested? yes, it's the cranking amps that does the work, if ain't putting out the amps it's going to tough to turn over.

i would get the battery load tested, if it doesn't check out good, buy a lawn and garden battery with 350CCA, they're good for up to 35 HP.

but it could even be a mechanical issue, if that engine has an automatic decompressor for easier  starting.

[T-boss 410]

No such luck on an automatic decompressor. I have a load tester here, and I tested it yesterday. It drops to about 10v, and holds it. It just seems to not be enough to easily spin the engine over. 

[Travis]

10 volts is borderline, but as long as it holds it ought to be okay. have you tried jump starting it with your car? or another known good battery of similar size?

i would get a set of jumper cables, From the buggies battery take the positive straight to the + lug on the starter, and ground from the battery to a bolt on the frame or other good ground. then try to start it, if it spins over good with the jumpers, there is an issue with the wiring, not being able to carry the amperage. If not either battery or the starter, or excessive compression load on the engine.

next i would use a car battery, or better yet a battery of good condition and similar in amps, go from the + on that battery, to the + on the starter, and - to a good ground on the buggy,

try to start it.

Does it start fine like it's supposed to? If YES, Battery issue. if NO, probably a starter issue or excessive compression load on the engine and starter.

[T-boss 410]

The higher amperage won't burn up the starter or any of the wiring? I have a good car battery that would probably just need a recharge. 

[Travis]

I've jump started my lawnmower from a dodge Ram several times when the battery was starting to falter.   at worst, it should have a 20 or 30 amp fuse to protect the delicate wiring if something were to happen.

[T-boss 410]

I have been reading up on this, and what I have found was that the vehicle should not be running, since the UTV battery and starting system isn't designed for that kind of power. With that in mind, I will just throw the charger on the car battery and try starting it. 

If it starts properly, I can assume that the battery is at fault, correct?

[Travis]

1 hour ago, T-boss 410 said:

 

If it starts properly, I can assume that the battery is at fault, correct?

Yes. Battery fault is  most likely.

[kenfain]

Sorry it took so long to get back, dunno why, but I haven't been getting notifications on this thread till now. 

You can test the starter amp draw with an ammeter that has a hold function on it. Typically it'll be a multimeter with a built in amp clamp. Just like those you've seen before. Only with a hold feature. That feature is usually found on the expensive models. But you can buy a Chinese knockoff for twenty bucks or so. Just make sure it works with 12 volts, at only a couple amps or so. Most are not calibrated that low. So you have to read the fine print on the specs. You'll be reading those anyway, while verifying that it has the hold function. They'll ALL read 12v. But it has to do tiny amp readings. That's the difference in the models.

Clamp it on the positive cable at the starter, and turn the engine over. Following the directions for the hold feature, will leave you with the amp draw. Without the hold function, the numbers move too fast. So you need it to hold, at the highest number. That's your reading. I'm sure there's other ways to do it. An analog ammeter would probably work. I'm thinking that I read how to do it on YouTube, so Google the directions. Just to make sure that I didn't leave anything out. 

If it pulls too many amps, that usually means that your starter  brushes are worn. Yours being relatively new, I'd guess it's okay on that. So if you can't borrow the tool, it's probably not worth buying just for that unlikely possibility. 

[T-boss 410]

I guess my big mistake was purchasing a new battery that had the same rating as the old one. The old battery had a bad cell and wouldn't hold a charge for very long. I assumed that the OEM  battery was enough to start it with, and with the bad cell, I just replaced it with one with the same rating. I guess I should have followed my instincts and went up with the CCA's.

I have been trying to find some sort of conversion formula for the batteries that have an amp hour rating instead of the cca rating. There are some formulas out there, but none seem plausible to me. So I will use the cca rating to make my next purchase, if that is where my problem is. 

I appreciate the help, folks!

[kenfain]

If you're planning to use a deep cycle battery, you won't find those marked in cca. They're all marked in ah. 

Although there's no reason why a regular cranking type battery wouldn't work just fine. I'd personally stick with OEM. 

At any rate, if everything else is working as it should. There's no reason why you would need a bigger battery to make it start properly. But there's nothing wrong with having excess power, as long as you have the room for a bigger battery. 

I know what you mean about the conversion. I ran into the same thing. It's pretty confusing, to the point of being useless. 

[T-boss 410]

I don't want to use a deep cycle battery. From what I understand, a standard cranking battery is what is needed. Dimension-wise, I can't use anything other than a U1 or something of similar size. From the information that I have gathered, a 300cca battery is marginal for an engine such as this one. The OEM  battery is a 12v 35ah unit (according to the manual), so I tried to search for a cca rating to go along with those numbers. Virtually impossible. For this application, I would think a cranking battery is more in line for what I need. 

Do you think that the battery is good, and I have an issue elsewhere?

[kenfain]

I feel pretty confident that if you've tried a fully charged battery, that you have a different issue at work here. After all, wasn't this same size battery working just fine before?

But I also understand why you'd want something with plenty of power. Nobody wants a battery that gives just enough.