American Landmaster TW450 Won't Start!!

[malenurse13]

37 minutes ago, W B said:

malenurse

Did you ever get your starter installed? 

Actually no. And my kids are really upset. But we've got so many other little projects going on. I can't find 3-4 hrs to devote to putting in a new starter.

I've got a Kohler motor in mine. And I haven't considered pulling the motor. But I'll take another look and see if thats something I can do. I will definitely post pics and a reply once I get er done.

[malenurse13]

Ok...

So I've been trying to take my UTV apart to get to the starter. I've been working on and off for 3 days! But I've hit a wall.

I have a Kohler CH440 motor. The starter is inside. I've gotten all the screws off the cover. I just can't get it off without moving the motor some.

So here's my question... Is there some way to raise the motor just a few inches so I can pull the cover off the side?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

[malenurse13]

I finally got the shroud off and the old starter out. Tried to put the new starter in... don't fit. The casing around the top of the starter (the part that contacts the flywheel) is too small. But the shaft inside the starter is too long to swap the casing that covers the starter.

What can I do now?

If I have to order another starter... how can I make sure I get the right one?

[W B]

Malenurse,

I'm at work so don't have much t ime, but try putting your  old starter in a vise and jumping just the starter to see if it will run. If it does, you may just have a problem with the solenoid.. I would take the ole solenoid apart. Carefully !! so you know hoe to reassemble it. there are contacts on the inside where the  two studs stick out. Clean those up real good and the piece that makes contact with them. You may be in business with your old starter. If that do0esn't work get back to us.

 

[malenurse13]

I already tried a new solenoid and it didn't help. I ended up taking the case AND the gears off the top of the old starter. The old gears fit and lined up with the sprocket on the new starter motor. 

So I just finished putting the starter in there and it worked! New solenoid. New bottom half of the starter. Old top half. And it worked!

Now I need to spend half the night putting every little nut, bolt, and screw back on there so my kids can run it for chores tomorrow.

Sure is nice to hear it run again!

Thank yall for all the comments and advice.

I'll try posting a few pics later to better explain what worked...

[W B]

That's great to hear. Might make a wrench monkey out of you yet. I'm thinking of pulling that twin Subaru out of my machine and replace it with a 13 hp harbor freight engine. I never used all the power I had. I think the 13 should give me about what you have.

[malenurse13]

I think ours is supposed to be 14hp. Seems weak tho. If you ever tow anything... you might miss that twin!

[W B]

This is flat country and the only thing I want it to tow is my Big Butt!  if I get in a bind, I always have both posi-traction and 4 wheel drive.

[malenurse13]

I said I was going to explain my starter swap, so here it goes...

First off the top half of the starter would not fit. Whatever I bought (cheapest replacement on eBay $38) was too small up top and didn't line up with the 2 screw holes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I tried putting the old cover on top. But the new bendix (all the spring loaded gears that extend to contact the flywheel) was just a little bit taller than the old bendix and wouldn't fit without some heavy-duty metal cutting or drilling. Fortunately, the gear on the old bendix fit on top of the new starter. So I ended up installing and new starter (with new solenoid) but with the old bendix and old cover on top.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(This pic is all the leftover parts. The new stuff was already installed when I took this picture.)

After all this work was done, I realized the easiest way to do this job would have been to undo all the motor mounts on the bottom and raise the motor just an inch or so. I could have easily removed the 4 or 5 screws holding the shroud over flywheel and all that. I would not have had to remove the heat shields, exhaust, and all the other stuff I didn't need to take off. So the starter works better now but is not 100%. It still makes that hard "klinking" sound sometimes without moving the motor at all. Here's a pic of the flywheel where the starter is supposed to be...

You can see how much dirt has gotten in there with normal daily use on our property. The flywheel looks rusty and corroded. There is dirt built up right where the bendix makes contact with the flywheel.

So what could be causing my starting issues? Should I try a battery with more cranking amps? Should I try a new starter with new bendix and all? I've gone through 4 or 5 pull start cords over the last 4 months. They keep breaking! Could there be resistance somewhere else that's giving my starter such a hard time??

I would love to hear your thoughts...

[W B]

I'm about to get tied upon a call for about an hr, but I have n idea. Send me your engines model numbers and I'll get back to you.

[malenurse13]

All I know is it's a Kohler CH440.

I'll have to find the model number when I get home tonight. Where do you find the model number on a Kohler?

[W B]

Don't have a lot of experience with Kohler, but an engine is an engine and they mostly work the same, I am concerned after the starter problem you state that the rope keeps breaking. That should not be happening unless the engine is hard cranking. By the way, congrtaulations on the starter work. Shows you are thinking and making it work for you. I would first want to adjust the valves on that engine. most smallengines have some sort of automatic decompression to allow the engine to crank easier and get up to speed. This is usually accomplished by the adjustment on the exhaust valve. They have an internal component that temporarily holds the valve open for just a short while to relieve the compression. It can be off by just thousands of an inch and not open the valve Also it can be too tight and bend a pushrod.  You can find youtube videos of how to adjust the valves. Make sure you understand the procedure and go easy. Remember not too tight. If the spec is .00-4 to .0006 set it on 5. After closing it up, with the sparkplug out turn the engine over by hand. If it seems to bind you have the valves too tight. Or you can take it to a local shop and have them adjust it for you. This is an important part of the maintenance and should be done every 500 hrs at least. This could also have been hard on the starter making it fail. I'm going to attach a small handbook for that engine with some starting tips for you to go over. After you get this machine working, remember to never crank one of these small starters more than 10 seconds without letting it cool for a minute. they burn up easily.OM_CMD_PRO_Hor_17 590 11_REV_B_English.pdf

[W B]

Try this link. You can download a complete service manual for a CH440.

https://kohlerpower.com/en/engines/service-manuals

[malenurse13]

Thanks WB!

I don't know if it matters. But my motor is actually the Kohler ECH440. Command Pro EFI.  (fuel injected)

I've got the service manual now and will save it to my phone for any future maintenance.

It's funny you mention it... I tried pulling the spark plug the other day when the starter just would not turn the motor. Without the plug, there was NO resistance whatsoever. I don't know if that means I have some compression/decompression problem. Starter turned the motor without the spark plug as well. NO problem. 

As soon as I put the plug back in, the electric starter started the motor immediately. Makes me wonder if I have the right number of cranking amps on the battery? Or maybe there is some problem with decompression (valves). I think you're right... continuously breaking pull-start cords points to a compression/decompression problem. If the starter never gets into a bind WITHOUT the spark plug in there. Than compression must be what's keeping the motor from turning.

Or maybe I blew it by ordering a starter for the CH440, rather than ECH440. I don't know. I've learned a lot but still have a lot to learn.

Is there any chance all the dirt getting into the flywheel/starter area could be part of the problem? We have VERY sandy dirt in our area and this dirt gets EVERYWHERE! Could the drive shaft be getting dirty? Corroded? Restricted in anyway?

Maybe I need a custom mod to keep the dirt away from the pull-start/flywheel/starter area...

[W B]

11 hours ago, malenurse13 said:

I said I was going to explain my starter swap, so here it goes...

First off the top half of the starter would not fit. Whatever I bought (cheapest replacement on eBay $38) was too small up top and didn't line up with the 2 screw holes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I tried putting the old cover on top. But the new bendix (all the spring loaded gears that extend to contact the flywheel) was just a little bit taller than the old bendix and wouldn't fit without some heavy-duty metal cutting or drilling. Fortunately, the gear on the old bendix fit on top of the new starter. So I ended up installing and new starter (with new solenoid) but with the old bendix and old cover on top.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(This pic is all the leftover parts. The new stuff was already installed when I took this picture.)

After all this work was done, I realized the easiest way to do this job would have been to undo all the motor mounts on the bottom and raise the motor just an inch or so. I could have easily removed the 4 or 5 screws holding the shroud over flywheel and all that. I would not have had to remove the heat shields, exhaust, and all the other stuff I didn't need to take off. So the starter works better now but is not 100%. It still makes that hard "klinking" sound sometimes without moving the motor at all. Here's a pic of the flywheel where the starter is supposed to be...

You can see how much dirt has gotten in there with normal daily use on our property. The flywheel looks rusty and corroded. There is dirt built up right where the bendix makes contact with the flywheel.

So what could be causing my starting issues? Should I try a battery with more cranking amps? Should I try a new starter with new bendix and all? I've gone through 4 or 5 pull start cords over the last 4 months. They keep breaking! Could there be resistance somewhere else that's giving my starter such a hard time??

I would love to hear your thoughts...

 

[W B]

Lets go back for a minute. That picture you posted of the dirty flywheel where starter engages..............  Is that a large crack in the casting I'm seeing? I'll stop there until I hear from you.

[malenurse13]

I'm sorry. I didn't inspect it like I should have when I had it apart.

But looking at the full res photo on my phone, I don't see a crack. Its just dirty!

Plus, the flywheel resonates nicely when the starter hits it just right. I don't think a cracked flywheel would do that. (Or maybe it would... I don't know)

[malenurse13]

Ok... really frustrated!

Side by side has been starting fine since I got the new starter installed. So it's been like a week??

Today, the starter is doing nothing! No clanking sound. No bendix moving. No contact with the flywheel. Nothing!

I went ahead and bought a whole new pull start cord. I have been gently turning the motor over with a socket wrench where the little hole is in the belt cover. I guess its the clutch I'm turning. But this allows me to get past the heaviest compression. Then the pull start works easily.

Ran the UTV down the road for a few minutes. Turned it off. Starter still won't do anything. And the pull start cord ripped again. 

So here I am with a dead starter (one week of use) and a broken pull start cord. Same place I was in 4 months ago. 

What do y'all think is my problem. We never crank the starter more than 2-3sec at a time. Could a valve job fix this?

When I use the socket wrench to turn the motor over, and I hit the worst of the compression it makes a sound like a goose or a duck. Or like the sound of a saxophone (or any reed type instrument) when you don't know how to play.

Does this sound mean anything? Or is this normal?

I'm assuming I need another starter. I just figured out that if I'm leaving the top half of the starter in there... I can pull out the 3 screws holding the starter together and just swap out the bottom half. (which is probably the dead part anyway).

So I don't want to replace the starter till I figure out what's burning my old starters up.

What do yall think?

[W B]

Check your fuses. Should be one inline to the starter.

[W B]

And then get your valves adjusted.

 

[malenurse13]

All fuses are ok. I found at least 4 or 5 of 'em between the seat and the motor. I can tell there is power going to the starter. I can hear something--probably the solenoid clicking. But the starter won't turn at all. I got it working with the pull-start. As long as the rope doesn't break... pull-start works fine. If the rope breaks, I can tie a new knot and get a few more starts out of it...

I'll see if a valve adjustment helps. Then install another starter.

Thanks again!

[malenurse13]

After watching a few YouTube videos on valve adjustments... it looks like the sketchy way this UTV has been starting (not starting) has been screaming "VALVE ADJUSTMENT" ever since I bought it!

Even when the starter seemed to be working fine, it would often turn the motor a little and stop. It's done that since we bought it. After 4 or 5 attempts would finally start. So I'm gonna get a feeler gauge, pull this cover off, adjust the valves and then I guess I'm still gonna need a new starter. But the pull-start should be a lot better after the valve adjustment. This should be a much easier job than installing a new starter. As long as the valve cover is as easy to remove as it looks in the photo below.

I'll send an update soon...

[malenurse13]

And whenever I install a new starter... I'm just going to take off the 3 screws holding bottom half on... and swap that part out. No need to remove that whole shroud over the flywheel and all that.

Is there some way to rebuild the old starter? Replace some magnets? Re-wind some copper wire?

[W B]

Another small bit of advice. Remove the plug before starting the adjustment. That will make it much easier to turn thru the cycles.And when, (IMPORTANT) you are finished and button it back up, do NOT put the plug in yet.

Pull the engine thru a few turns to make sure you didnt adjust one or both on the incorrect stroke. If you were to try starting right off it make pop and bend a push rod or break the camshaft. If it turns frelly and the valves are working up and down, you can then screw the plug in and try starting it. Best of luck!

Ps: I would take that starter apart and check inside the solenoid behind the two studs you battery cable goes on. They usually wcan be removed and they may look all burnt . Clean the contacts good and reassemble. It just might work.

[malenurse13]

I adjusted the valves yesterday. I don't know if I should have. I used the 0.004 feeler gauge and both valves seemed ok. But the manual said it's supposed to be set to 0.0039. So I tightened both valves a hair tighter and put 'er back together. I'm amazed how much difference 10,000ths of an inch could make. But it runs a tad smoother, no backfire, and the pull start works without the severe, shoulder dislocating kick back. Maybe that's all she needed. 

So I'll get another starter and maybe we can ride our UTV more than a week without any maintenance or repairs. I checked all the wires in and around the starter and they all look fine. Fuses are all OK.

Any other ideas on what might have caused our starter to stop working so soon? Any other ideas on any other adjustments I need to make before installing a new starter??

[W B]

I'm at work but a quick answer. Starter was overworked and got hot trying to turn that resistance. Before I would buy a new starter I would try what I suggested...pull the solenoid and clean the contacts. It might just work. Glad you finally adjusted the valves. Book says between .oo3 and .005 so 4 is perfect. Enjoy

[malenurse13]

Oh... I see. You're talking about IN the starter. I only inspected the wires and connections on the outside. Will do...

By the way Taryl says "4 thousanths! No matter what the manual says!"

😀

[W B]

this is a way to get around fixing the solenoid. Darryl's way.

 

[malenurse13]

Taryl's solenoid trick didn't work last time. That's why I went ahead and bought a new starter/solenoid combo. So maybe... my old solenoid still works!

How would you test to see if my starting problem is the solenoid vs. starter??

[W B]

With the battery connected to the solenoid take a screwdriver or something similar and jump between the two posts This will jump the starter if good.  With the screwdriver jump between the post with power and the terminal (small wire(. This should jump the solenoid. The starter has to be iinstalled on the engine or the starter needs the negative from battery grounded to the case or vise to complete the circuit.. If not installed on engine it should be in vise due o the torque when they start.