American Landmaster TW450 Won't Start!!

[malenurse13]

Nothing happens when I connect both posts on the solenoid. Of course, there's fireworks when I accidentally connect the positive post with the starter casing. But it doesn't even click when I connect the 2 posts on the solenoid. So I don't think Taryl's wire rigging will help anything. 

Maybe I can put the old solenoid back on. I'm going to buy a new starter/solenoid combo soon. But at least the pull start is working without tearing up the rope anymore. That valve adjustment did some good.

[W B]

 

ok- lets make sure we are on the same page.If in a vise you can do this with jumper cables hooked to a good battery. Neg cable to ground on starter case. If you touch the positive cable to the stud nearest the starter case, the starter should spin. if so, starter good

hook pos to upper stud where cable goes on engine. Jump a wire or screwdriver between that stud and small terminal. That should energize solenoid. If not try other starter. You should have enough parts to make one good one.

there also should be a strap connecting the bottom stud to the interior of the housing.  This completes the circuit in normal use. Remember these small starters take a beating in normal use. With your valve adj problem they were really overheating.

 

 

 

[malenurse13]

My starter/solenoid is still on the UTV. I used a screw driver to connect both posts on the solenoid. But nothing moved.

I didn't do anything with the "jumper wire".  I assumed if the starter jump didn't move anything... the solenoid jump wouldn't do anything either? Am I right?

I may put together all the old stuff to try a test with the old starter in a vice. Just to see what works and what doesn't...

[W B]

It would prove if your small wire had 12v on it or  not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dodger]

Wish I had seen this earlier......99percent of the time, especially with these starters is the little screw on solenoid. the contact the connects the battery terminal to the terminal that goes down to the starter motor winding gets pitted and burned, not allowing enough amperage to turn the motor. you could use an external starter relay or replace just the solenoid. Kohler Part # 1743505-S SOLENOID, STARTER or again, you could use an external starter relay

[malenurse13]

The last 2 times I put a new starter on the side by side... I installed a new solenoid first. That didn't fix the problem either time. Truth be told... I have never replaced the whole starter. The last 2 starters I bought were not the right size. So I just swapped out the bottom half of the starter and fastened it to the original bendix.

I finally bought the right size starter/solenoid. So I plan on replacing all of it the right way. But that relay sounds like a great idea. The starter always has a hard time turning the motor.

[W B]

shoot a pic of that starter and post it. Just wondering what that starter looks like. never changed one on a kohler,

[Ben-jamin]

Did this ever get solved o have a trailmaster tw450 and I’m getting the same thing with electric start sounds like it’s engaging and maybe spinning a little bit but not enough to turn over pull start works fine sometimes feels harder to pull but never too hard starts easy just slowly developed the starter problem over the span of a couple months and sometimes if I pulled cord a little bit starter would spin good 

[W B]

17 hours ago, Ben-jamin said:

Did this ever get solved o have a trailmaster tw450 and I’m getting the same thing with electric start sounds

 

Benjamin  I assume you have a kohler engine, Have you adjusted the valves? Sounds like the decompression is not kicking in which would throw extra load on the starter.

[Ben-jamin]

On 9/16/2023 at 9:06 AM, W B said:

Benjamin  I assume you have a kohler engine, Have you adjusted the valves? Sounds like the decompression is not kicking in which would throw extra load on the starter.

I have not yet but that would have been my next question if there was some kind of compression release (yes it is a kohler engine) I’ll get that done and report back with my results I’d love to get the electric start fixed for my grandfather to be able to take it out or use it 

[malenurse13]

Sorry, y'all... I've been away for a while. Our Landmaster side-x-side sat in our garage for over a year! We finally lifted the motor up enough to remove the shroud and installed a brand-new starter/solenoid combo that fit. It still wouldn't start. A mechanic friend said, adjust the valves. I did that (and put in a new battery) and FINALLY... the thing started on the first crank!

So the kids have been running this thing for 2 weeks straight! Starting no problem. Then all of a sudden, it won't start with the starter. Bought a new battery, electric starter still won't start, but pull start works ok. So we use the pull start for about a week. Then it gets to where the pull starter won't budge! I tried rotating the crank shaft with a socket wrench, WAY too much pressure. I pulled the spark plug out. STILL way too much pressure to turn the crank shaft. I have never seen a motor that won't turn without the spark plug in it. So here's my question...

What in the world could be causing all that pressure to where the motor won't even turn with the spark plug out?! 

[malenurse13]

Looking up some info on Google, I keep running into info about a "Seized Motor." I checked the oil when we first got it running again. There was plenty in it. It was probably old oil, but it wasn't dry. Is it possible that I am getting close to a seized motor? Could an oil change help? Any advice on troubleshooting or repairs would be GREATLY appreciated!

[W B]

             damn nurse,

Oil is the blood of an engine . you have to check the ppressure {level} regularly. If it seized you can probably get ready for a new engine. If I remember correctly you had a kohler engine. While shopping I would check out other brands. Kohler is getting a bad reputation latlely. I would like a Honda engine inj it. 

You cantry putting oil in it and see if it will crank but I dont give great odds.

If you get a new one CHECK THE OIL every time you run it and teach the kids also.

[malenurse13]

Thank you WB. I feel like you're right. But this side-x-side has done this before. The key wouldnt turn it over and the pull cord broke a dozen tines. But for some reason, the process of installing a new starter and battery and adjusting the valves fixed it. And all that pressure went away. For the last 2-3 weeks, it has turned over with the key/pull-start effortlessly. But I guess it is possible that this is a new, unrelated issue. So I'm going to try an oil change and maybe even spray something in the spark plug hole just to see if that improves anything.

BUT... if it doesn't... and it is time for a new motor... and we can't afford a Honda... has anyone on this forum already discussed the best, easiest to replace, most affordable option for a new motor on this model?

[malenurse13]

I guess I'd need something with atleast 14hp...

[W B]

Honda isdefinately  your  best option . If that don't it your budgetyou can pick up a 13 hp from Harbor Freight for around 395 I think. They actually copied a honda engine I am told. Make sure the footprint fits, the shaft size and length fit. It has both electric strart and hand crank.But it also needs the oil checked regularly.. Watch their sales, join their club and you might get that engine with a 20-25% discount on sale. Keep in touch. Dont buy a kohler!

[malenurse13]

Well, if it's not one thing... it's another. We used marvel mystery oil up top and changed the oil. Now, the motor spins with ease!! But now there's an incredibly LOUD metal clanging sound that may or may not be coming from the clutch?? Here's a YT clip with the sound...

 

[malenurse13]

Can y'all tell where the sound is coming from? It's deafening! Way louder than in the YT video...

Some points that may help figure it out:

- I only put about 30 cc of Marvel Mystery oil in the spark plug hole. MM oil was sitting on top of the cylinder head for 3 days. Nothing came out when we turned the motor over without the spark plug in.

- The motor was real hard to turn a week ago, now turns with ease. Could there be something broke inside the motor?

- I'm attaching a photo of the oil I used. Same the previous owner said he used. 1.4 quarts filled it up. Dip stick says its the right amount. But even after oil change... the oil on the dip stick is black and nasty. Could there be something broke inside the motor?

- The bolt and washers holding in the clutch were a little loose. I used an impact wrench to tighten. Thought that might help the sound. But it made no difference.

- Could the MM oil be causing a stronger Than normal explosion in the cylinder? Could it have blown the valve adjustment out of whack?

[W B]

Nurse,

FUG GET about it. The eengine is shot. Sounds are hard to decipher but it sounds like a rod rattling around in there. All the time I kept telling you to check the oil, I ASS umed you understood not to overfill. When you overfill a small engine like that the internal parts act like an eggbeater. It hit me when you mentioned how black and dirty the oil looked. I've seen one run until the oil turned to a tar or pitch like substance and freeze up. Even tho you may have loosened it the engine is shot. CANNOT BE REPAIRED. Save your pennies and get a new engine.When you give up trying t hings you'll wish you had just replaced the engine in the first place.

PS| For a quick check, remove thge spark plug from engine. Find a long skinny screwdriver or you can use a pencil if you take it easy. As you pull the crank slowly does the screwdriver go in and out `with the` piston. If it doesnt move the connecting rod is broken and not attached to the piston. (No that can't be fixed at this point.

[malenurse13]

Ok, warming up to the engine swap on the landmaster. It's SPRING BLACK FRIDAY at Harbor Freight! We have a go kart that won't run so we bought the Predator 212 for $109!

The problem is the predator 212 motor shaft is about 3/4" shorter than the old Tecumseh 6.5hp that came with the go kart. So if you look in the attached pic, when the motor is mounted where it's supposed to be, the clutch would line up with the chain rather than the rear pulley. I drilled new holes to mount the motor more to the left, but then the motor was sitting right on the chain. Any suggestions you have would be GREATLY appreciated! I need to learn what I can with this go kart so we can succeed with the engine swap on the Landmaster.

1. Is there something I can use to extend the shaft on the Predator 212? This would be the preferred option if something like this exists.

2. Is there some sort of riser that I can use to raise the motor (using new motor mount holes) where it's not sitting on the chain?

3. Only other option is remove the rear pulley, swap it with the rear sprocket so they chain is on the left and pulley would line up with the clutch on the shorter shaft. But then I would need to move the big sprocket to the left to match.

[W B]

Nurse

First----Erase your #3 down. Don't start reengineering the kart.

#1 Although you may find a stubshaft the size you want, you may be placing undue strtess with that pulley and belt hanging out there. Wouldn't want my kids riding a hazard like that. Which leaves #2

#2 seach ebay or amazon or perhaps a local  auto supply for standoffs or spacers. In fact I have seen large nuts (5/8 or 3/4)to use as standoffs. Cheaper and this isn't rocket science.check close and make sure you will clear all parts by raising engine. Use flat washers and lockwashers to secure enine firmly. make a habit of checking tightness regularly.

[malenurse13]

Well, I'm sorry I never saw your response, WB. We tried every alternative engine mounting technique I could think of, but nothing worked. So, after seeing a YouTube video with the same engine swap, we took the rear axle to our local mechanic who used his air hammer to help loosen up all those stubborn parts so we could move the belt closer to the motor and chain on the outside. It actually worked! If you compare this photo to the last one I posted, you can see the difference.

[malenurse13]

So the new motor is on the go kart! Fix-a-flat in the dry rotted tires. It ran great till I got on it... Now the kids can run full throttle and the belt never catches. It smelled like burnt rubber when I rode it (I weigh a good bit more than they do). I'm going to assume, with the condition of the tires and all other rubber parts, that the belt just needs to be replaced. But if you have any ideas of what else could cause a belt to go from traction to no traction in just a few minutes, please let me know...

If we can get the kinks out and end up with a reliable go kart after this predator motor swap, we'll do the same thing with the side-by-side!

[malenurse13]

https://youtube.com/shorts/1JEi9hdW7Jo?si=5_RwP_DUkgytTYFF

The brake sounds awful! But works WAY better than our American Landmaster TW450.

[malenurse13]

When the kids hit the gas, I can see the front clutch pulley trying to engage the belt. But all it does is burn up the belt. I have ordered some new belts on Amazon that will be here in a couple days. But what else could be going on that the belt is not properly engaging?

There's no WD40 or any grease on it. Only difference is I tried riding it (290 lbs).

[malenurse13]

A new belt fixed our weird lag issues. The kids ran the go kart all day yesterday, no problem. Then it started doing this...

Any idea what would cause the clutch to grab so aggressively like that??

[W B]

Ahah, a hint........Lose 100 lbs and try again! 

Not a lot of experience with clutches. Perhaps when you swapped sides on that axle something either doesn't line up or slipped position.

You probably won't see me around here much. I start Chemo tomorrow morning.  Didn't want that on  my resume but you can't always choose.