Hisun Sector e1 Battery replacement: any tips?

[Jamie Wilson]

51.2V 30Ah is the ones i purchased with Bluetooth.

[mark walkom]

spoke to litime and they don't have the 48v batteries in au, with no short term plans to sell them

[BuggyBoy]

On 6/25/2022 at 5:59 PM, EVSupport said:

Just a few points to guide people on lithium cells. The original pack  is not actually 2080ah, or rather it is but not in the correct way you express a pack ah . They have quoted that figure based on 8 x 260ah  so its quoting 2080ah on a 6 volt battery. Thats not how the pack ah is worked out.  The original is actually a 260ah pack at 48v .  But with  any lead you dont actually have access to all of that for storage purposes, as the voltage drops below a usable figure. If you took each battery down to 0v you may get the 260ah , but kill it in the process. Whats important with lead is having adequate ah to supply the discharge rate  the motor/ control requires. Thats where Lithium have the edge.   So with Lithium (any version) you can have a lower ah of the pack but you do need to ensure you have enough to easily deliver the high discharges needed. If you have a low ah, based on your run time needs, you may well then be seriously over stressing the packs to deliver the amps required under high load. Thats not good. On my UK Li Ion conversions we use a 60v set up (Uses OEM cell blocks from a UK vehicle maker) with a total of 180ah (6 x 30ah).  60v also reduces the current draw and heat under load, and these stupidly high quality cells can discharge at 175a (thats a pack  max discharge of over 1000a)  each cell block, so they are really very un stressed. That means they dont get hot, that means the cells dont swell, that means long life. If you use lower capacity or lower discharge rate cells then the life can be seriously shortened. Lifepo4 are good but tend to have lower discharge rates than the Li ion, but lifepo4 just melt rather than catch fire, but also do need to be clamped as they swell more under high discharge rates.  

Batteries have what is called a "C" rating which is a value relating to the rate of discharge and charge they can cope with, so a 100ah cell with a C rate of 1 can easily discharge at 100a, if its charge rate is a max of 0.2c then it can charge at 20amps. Cheaper cells can often discharge at perhaps 3c for short times, high quality (and different chemistry some lipo etc) can stretch to 10c. The  li ion ones I use can discharge at over 5c.  Aim for a constant pack discharge rate of 400a to cope with a decent load for more than a few seconds, and you will be OK. That means if you have a 90ah pack with a 3c constant discharge rate you will be damaging the pack from the start. If you are using old ex car battery cells (or second life packs) then you should not expect them to constantly deliver the same way as they could when new. They should be de rated.  Based on discharge and longer life I would not install a pack under 150ah of any Lithium. If I did I would not expect a long and happy life. If thats OK then all is good. If you are likely to get hacked off when they fail after a couple of years usage, then it may be worth re thinking what your pack ah is to start with.

Back to lead, a 12v lead starter battery can do perhaps 8C for a few seconds, then they start to get hot, then the plates buckle then they fail. No good for a traction battery but ok to start a gas engine.  Lead traction are also not able to deliver really high long time discharge, which is why they go for a seemingly big pack in the first place, just to get a reasonable chance of being able to deliver performance under load, and have a reasonable life.  Traction batteries can however be heavily discharged which a starter cant. Leisure can also do this but cant deliver the high currents so never use these as a traction replacement.

I do reprogram the DeltaQ ic1200 (Delta Q did have a suitable algorithm for my needs) and this uses a feature of re programming the temp sensor input so it becomes a short to start option that is linked to my Pack Monitoring Unit (PMU) that talks to the OEM electronics on the cell blocks, so giving pack level safety on charge over voltage or temperature. That is really important.

You also need to reprogram the Sevcon to reflect the new discharge curve of the Lithium cells you use. If you dont it will still be able to discharge the pack to a low voltage that is below what the Li  cells can take.

I hope some of the above is of help.

 

So these Giant 48v/110ah batteries have just become available: https://www.aussiebatteries.com.au/giant-100ah-48v-lithium-golf-cart-deep-cycle-battery

They look like they could drop in either side of the Controller that sits in the middle of the tray as they are 330mm(W) 355(L) 295mm(H). They can be paralleled, and I think two should be enough. Technically once paralleled the system should output 400ah continuous and 800ah Max (5 secs), more than enough for the E1 - probably 1/3rd more than is needed.

However, the sales person stated that if the regen braking exceeded 400amps, it would put the batteries in standby mode for protection and they would have to be 're-started' with a jumper pack to reset them. Does anybody know the max output of the E1 Regen system, and if it does exceed that, is it possible to disable/bypass the regen so it has a zero output?

Thanks.

[GNFO]

2 hours ago, BuggyBoy said:

So these Giant 48v/110ah batteries have just become available: https://www.aussiebatteries.com.au/giant-100ah-48v-lithium-golf-cart-deep-cycle-battery

They look like they could drop in either side of the Controller that sits in the middle of the tray as they are 330mm(W) 355(L) 295mm(H). They can be paralleled, and I think two should be enough. Technically once paralleled the system should output 400ah continuous and 800ah Max (5 secs), more than enough for the E1 - probably 1/3rd more than is needed.

However, the sales person stated that if the regen braking exceeded 400amps, it would put the batteries in standby mode for protection and they would have to be 're-started' with a jumper pack to reset them. Does anybody know the max output of the E1 Regen system, and if it does exceed that, is it possible to disable/bypass the regen so it has a zero output?

Thanks.

That looks pretty good as long as you can make it fit.  Two of them would give you a lot of range.  Just make sure you get bigger cables to parallel them so they can handle to current.

I doubt the regen is capable of 400A. That's the max the motor can take as an input, so regen is going to be no more than ~60% of that max due to different losses in the system.  Probably even less than that, and I would guess the motor controller would limit the regen anyway because the old Discover batteries wouldn't have been able to handle it.

[mark walkom]

heh, just get https://www.bigw.com.au/product/voltx-48v-100ah-pro-lithium-battery-lifepo4-100a-bms-deep-cycle-rv-camping/p/9900111907 and then use 5% off vouchers and your rewards 10% off for the month on that, save a fair whack of change! 

 

I also found https://www.solarbatterywarehouse.com.au/solar-battery-shop/fusion-solar-agm-batteries-6v-5lang-bc89t-6c2c2-sswn5 for a bit cheaper, so there's other options out there if you want to go a single big unit. or https://au.renogy.com/core-12v-24v-48v-100ah-deep-cycle-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery/#op={"id"%3A509%2C"options"%3A[{"optionId"%3A"252"%2C"value"%3A"485"}]} for something that might be drop in for an even cheaper price

[Jarheadtx]

On 5/16/2024 at 2:10 PM, Jamie Wilson said:

Wanted to give my info here so its documented and others know. I have had issues since day one with my Discover batteries on my Sector E1. The issue was the dealer i purchased it from was 3 hours away and both them and Hisun said i would need to bring it back to figure it out. after 3 years almost I was so tired of the low voltage errors "45C3" that i decided to replace the batteries. It was so much money and so many different stories/opinions I wasn't sure what direction to go. Last min i found Litime.com they had 51.2v 30Ah Lithium batteries. I reached out and they said they would be a direct replacement for the Discover batteries. So I ordered them. They emailed me back and as I found on the interwebs - contradicting information they said "These will not work, please deny the shipment or use for another project. The HP of your UTV is too much". Well I didn't listen and i accepted the shipment. Yesterday i took out my 8 Discover and replaced them with 4 51.2v 30Ah LiTime batteries. I installed them in parallel, I did a algorithm update on the Delta iQ 1200 using profile 233 (Closest settings to the LiTime Battery). and BOOM! it worked, and it worked like NEVER before! its so fast, two grown adults up the hill and hardly any drop, but best part at 50% charge it was showing ZERO errors. I would estimate the cart is about 2" taller now too b/c of the battery weight removed. I will update in a few weeks how they are doing. but as of now i would totally recommend and they were like $499 a battery b/c they have a sale currently taking 100 off each battery. 

Can you share a picture of the install of these batteries? What else did you need to purchase to get this setup working? Thanks for sharing the details.

[ScottKN]

On 5/16/2024 at 2:10 PM, Jamie Wilson said:

Wanted to give my info here so its documented and others know. I have had issues since day one with my Discover batteries on my Sector E1. The issue was the dealer i purchased it from was 3 hours away and both them and Hisun said i would need to bring it back to figure it out. after 3 years almost I was so tired of the low voltage errors "45C3" that i decided to replace the batteries. It was so much money and so many different stories/opinions I wasn't sure what direction to go. Last min i found Litime.com they had 51.2v 30Ah Lithium batteries. I reached out and they said they would be a direct replacement for the Discover batteries. So I ordered them. They emailed me back and as I found on the interwebs - contradicting information they said "These will not work, please deny the shipment or use for another project. The HP of your UTV is too much". Well I didn't listen and i accepted the shipment. Yesterday i took out my 8 Discover and replaced them with 4 51.2v 30Ah LiTime batteries. I installed them in parallel, I did a algorithm update on the Delta iQ 1200 using profile 233 (Closest settings to the LiTime Battery). and BOOM! it worked, and it worked like NEVER before! its so fast, two grown adults up the hill and hardly any drop, but best part at 50% charge it was showing ZERO errors. I would estimate the cart is about 2" taller now too b/c of the battery weight removed. I will update in a few weeks how they are doing. but as of now i would totally recommend and they were like $499 a battery b/c they have a sale currently taking 100 off each battery. 

Really appreciate your insight into the LiTime batteries.  Can I ask you why you chose profile 233 charging to 56v rather than profile 386 charging to 58.4v?  I only ask because the LiTime 48v charger they sell lists at 58.4v. Thanks!

[Osney]

The lead acid Discover batteries in my buggy were getting so bad I could barely do four miles before it ground to a halt. Dealer wanted £1600 for a replacement set, and going down the LiTime or Relion route was going to be just as pricey if not more so, and UK availability isn't good. Instead, I bought a couple of nominal 22v battery modules from a crashed Peugeot E208 for £200 each, wired them up in series and reprogrammed the charger to a basic lithium ion setting. It works fine, and with the two modules would easily do 15-20 miles before the meter on the dash goes down to three bars. Fully charged, the two modules together give about 52v, which is plenty to make the buggy zip along. It worked so well I bought another two modules to put in parallel and double the capacity. As yet, I've not sorted out any battery management system, which I know is a risk. It's on the list of things to do - I'd be happier charging to 80% than 100% every time - but the modules have very basic BMS built into them which gives some protection and I do all my charging outside just in case. So far, the batteries haven't even felt warm either in charging or discharging.

I've had to do a bit of work on the underside and rear of the tub to mount the batteries and make it more mud-proof and there's room for improvement there. Overall, I'm very happy at having saved £800 and made the machine much more usable. The modules weigh 12.5kg each too, so I reckon I've shaved about 230kg off the weight of the vehicle. I might have to put a little extra weight back in as it spins the back wheels on steep grassy slopes a bit now. Not helped by the 4wd not working at the moment - another thing to fix.

[ScottKN]

Hisun Sector E1 Discovery to Lithium Conversion.

So I went ahead and did the conversion using the LiTime 4-pack 48V 30Ah GC2 which I ordered on Amazon Prime Day for $1840 ($460/battery).  Also bought the LiTime 58.4V 18A ($200) Lithium Battery Charge and “Superboni” 7pc set #2 Awg HD Golf Cart Battery Club Car 48 Wire Kit ($56).  

I utilized the LiTime charger to activate the Bluetooth and charge each battery to full.  Then, connected them all in parallel and allowed them to balance both internal cells of each battery and between batteries which took several hours.

Removed all the old Discovery batteries which as stated before requires the removal of the front panel under the seating and is much easier if you disconnect the piston allowing the rear bed to open fully.

Placed the 4 new batteries in the most interior positions and had to utilize the braces from the exterior positions because the H-brace from the interior positions overlapped the battery terminals on the new batteries.  Be sure to position the batteries so the original connections can reach which for me was positioning the negative terminal on both posterior batteries towards the rear.  I connected the batteries in parallel for balanced but not perfectly balanced charging/discharge because it would require connections crossing over the controller sitting between the left and right battery positions.  Basically, the connections followed a “U” pattern around the controller.  I used this webpage to help wire the batteries:

https://www.solar-electric.com/lib/wind-sun/Iota_balanced_charging.pdf

I reprogrammed the Delta-Q charger to profile #233 charging to 56V as previously mentioned by Jaime since I read it is not recommended to utilize the max charge voltage which would have been profile #386 charging to 58.4V. https://support.delta-q.com/hc/en-us/articles/14188856858893-Choosing-an-Algorithm-for-a-Lithium-Battery

How to upload new profiles:

https://support.delta-q.com/hc/en-us/articles/360015622531-IC-Series-How-to-reprogram-reflash-or-upgrade-software-and-algorithms-via-USB

How to change charger profile:

https://support.delta-q.com/hc/en-us/articles/360016475772-Changing-Algorithms-on-IC-Series-Chargers 

Download profiles here:

https://support.delta-q.com/hc/en-us/articles/360015622311-Download-Algorithms-for-IC-Series-Chargers

Put everything back together and took it for a test run.  Everything appeared to function properly and certainly has more power.  I am using the battery Bluetooth with the LiTime App to monitor the batteries individually and the App has a feature that allows you to monitor all 4 batteries as a system.  I was able to see that the batteries did charge on the Delta Q charger as well.  It’s been less than a week, so I will update if anything changes, but overall for less than $2100 + tax/shipping(free since I have Amazon Prime), I’m very happy with the conversion.  Hope this helps anyone else thinking of making the leap to Lithium.

 

[mark walkom]

that's fantastic, thanks for sharing!

 

did you happen to grab photos of the the new layout?

[ScottKN]

On 8/1/2024 at 4:10 PM, mark walkom said:

that's fantastic, thanks for sharing!

 

did you happen to grab photos of the the new layout?

This is the best I could do with photos.  Controller is in between 2 sets of batteries.  Back right battery has all the positive leads from the controller, charger, etc.  Left back battery has all the negative leads from the controller, charger, etc.  The wiring follows balanced, but not perfectly balanced connections in parallel meaning that the right back battery starts with the positive load/charge and connects to the front right battery which connects to the front left battery and finally the back left battery terminates with the negative load/charging leads.   Hope this helps.  No issues yet, but haven’t used it that much lately, so still haven’t completed a full charging cycle.  

[mark walkom]

that's awesome, thanks mate!

[BuggyBoy]

On 6/25/2022 at 5:59 PM, EVSupport said:

Just a few points to guide people on lithium cells. The original pack  is not actually 2080ah, or rather it is but not in the correct way you express a pack ah . They have quoted that figure based on 8 x 260ah  so its quoting 2080ah on a 6 volt battery. Thats not how the pack ah is worked out.  The original is actually a 260ah pack at 48v .  But with  any lead you dont actually have access to all of that for storage purposes, as the voltage drops below a usable figure. If you took each battery down to 0v you may get the 260ah , but kill it in the process. Whats important with lead is having adequate ah to supply the discharge rate  the motor/ control requires. Thats where Lithium have the edge.   So with Lithium (any version) you can have a lower ah of the pack but you do need to ensure you have enough to easily deliver the high discharges needed. If you have a low ah, based on your run time needs, you may well then be seriously over stressing the packs to deliver the amps required under high load. Thats not good. On my UK Li Ion conversions we use a 60v set up (Uses OEM cell blocks from a UK vehicle maker) with a total of 180ah (6 x 30ah).  60v also reduces the current draw and heat under load, and these stupidly high quality cells can discharge at 175a (thats a pack  max discharge of over 1000a)  each cell block, so they are really very un stressed. That means they dont get hot, that means the cells dont swell, that means long life. If you use lower capacity or lower discharge rate cells then the life can be seriously shortened. Lifepo4 are good but tend to have lower discharge rates than the Li ion, but lifepo4 just melt rather than catch fire, but also do need to be clamped as they swell more under high discharge rates.  

Batteries have what is called a "C" rating which is a value relating to the rate of discharge and charge they can cope with, so a 100ah cell with a C rate of 1 can easily discharge at 100a, if its charge rate is a max of 0.2c then it can charge at 20amps. Cheaper cells can often discharge at perhaps 3c for short times, high quality (and different chemistry some lipo etc) can stretch to 10c. The  li ion ones I use can discharge at over 5c.  Aim for a constant pack discharge rate of 400a to cope with a decent load for more than a few seconds, and you will be OK. That means if you have a 90ah pack with a 3c constant discharge rate you will be damaging the pack from the start. If you are using old ex car battery cells (or second life packs) then you should not expect them to constantly deliver the same way as they could when new. They should be de rated.  Based on discharge and longer life I would not install a pack under 150ah of any Lithium. If I did I would not expect a long and happy life. If thats OK then all is good. If you are likely to get hacked off when they fail after a couple of years usage, then it may be worth re thinking what your pack ah is to start with.

Back to lead, a 12v lead starter battery can do perhaps 8C for a few seconds, then they start to get hot, then the plates buckle then they fail. No good for a traction battery but ok to start a gas engine.  Lead traction are also not able to deliver really high long time discharge, which is why they go for a seemingly big pack in the first place, just to get a reasonable chance of being able to deliver performance under load, and have a reasonable life.  Traction batteries can however be heavily discharged which a starter cant. Leisure can also do this but cant deliver the high currents so never use these as a traction replacement.

I do reprogram the DeltaQ ic1200 (Delta Q did have a suitable algorithm for my needs) and this uses a feature of re programming the temp sensor input so it becomes a short to start option that is linked to my Pack Monitoring Unit (PMU) that talks to the OEM electronics on the cell blocks, so giving pack level safety on charge over voltage or temperature. That is really important.

You also need to reprogram the Sevcon to reflect the new discharge curve of the Lithium cells you use. If you dont it will still be able to discharge the pack to a low voltage that is below what the Li  cells can take.

I hope some of the above is of help.

 

So my lack of knowledge is showing here:
I was assuming i would need at least a 300a output for the E1 (the motor will go up to 400a i've read), so wanted to put two 200a continuous output batteries in (as above: https://www.aussiebatteries.com.au/giant-100ah-48v-lithium-golf-cart-deep-cycle-battery) and assumed i'd get 400a continuous in parallel. However, the reply from Giant customer service said the 200a BMS in each battery will not allow more than 200a output, even if paralled. So how do you double the amps in parallel if a BMS won't allow it?

...or am i being stupid and two of these batteries, even with only a 200a combined output still be enough for the E1 to climb steep hills? 

Cheers in advance. 

[BuggyBoy]

On 3/12/2024 at 1:51 AM, GNFO said:

That link doesn't show the full technical specs of the battery, so I can't tell.  In particular, I would want to know the dimensions to see how much you would have to modify the trays (and vertical space), and for output what is the max continuous output (amps, not amp-hours like you wrote).  Together, the Discover dry cells supposedly only put out 100a continuous but they do have a combined capacity ah rating of 170-200ah.  I went with the ReLion Insight 48V batteries because they individually have 100a max continuous output rating, and with four of them in parallel I get to the 400a max of the motor.  In theory I could have replaced all 8 of the dry cells with a single battery in the same form factor of the Discover batteries, but that would have only given me 30ah of capacity.  Using four gets me up to 120ah and 400a continuous output.  To answer your direct question, yes a single lithium battery could replace the 8 dry cell batteries, but you also have to look at continuous output (amps) and storage (amp-hours).

So my lack of knowledge is showing here:
I was assuming i would need at least a 300a output for the E1 (the motor will go up to 400a i've read), so wanted to put two 200a continuous output batteries in (as above: https://www.aussiebatteries.com.au/giant-100ah-48v-lithium-golf-cart-deep-cycle-battery) and assumed i'd get 400a continuous in parallel. However, the reply from Giant customer service said the 200a BMS in each battery will not allow more than 200a output, even if paralled. So how do you double the amps in parallel if a BMS won't allow it?

...or am i being stupid and two of these batteries, even with only a 200a combined output still be enough for the E1 to climb steep hills? 

Cheers in advance. 

[GNFO]

12 hours ago, BuggyBoy said:

So my lack of knowledge is showing here:
I was assuming i would need at least a 300a output for the E1 (the motor will go up to 400a i've read), so wanted to put two 200a continuous output batteries in (as above: https://www.aussiebatteries.com.au/giant-100ah-48v-lithium-golf-cart-deep-cycle-battery) and assumed i'd get 400a continuous in parallel. However, the reply from Giant customer service said the 200a BMS in each battery will not allow more than 200a output, even if paralled. So how do you double the amps in parallel if a BMS won't allow it?

...or am i being stupid and two of these batteries, even with only a 200a combined output still be enough for the E1 to climb steep hills? 

Cheers in advance. 

It is possible that this manufacturer has decided to program its BMS this way to limit their liability.  I found this article to be helpful:  https://www.master-instruments.com.au/tech-talk-article/3/explaining-the-limits-of-lifepo4-batteries-in-parallel.html

On its own, there shouldn't be a limit to parallel batteries increasing the available amps, but manufacturers can be worried about variations in individual batteries leading to an overdraw on the better performing battery. If all the batteries in parallel have the functionality for their BMS to communicate with each other, you wouldn't need to worry about charge balancing and such.  My 48V ReLion batteries have a CANbus system for that precise purpose, although they still limit the number of parallel batteries to 8.

If what the manufacturer of the batteries you're looking at is saying is true, they don't do that and are minimizing their warranty risk.

If you have no other options, 200a will work (and I see they allow a surge of 400a for 5 seconds), but you might have to go slower on the hills. The original Discover batteries only shows a max continuous of 100a (for 88 minutes), although I was able to find info elsewhere that they have a max discharge of 1050a for 5 sec.  Can't really tell how long they could theoretically put out 400a, but I doubt it's for long.

Of course, the Giant rep may also not really understand what they're talking about and are playing it safe.  Maybe ask for further information from an actual engineering contact in the company? Just not sure if the person you talked to was only customer service with a set of info sheets in front of them.

Edited August 14 by GNFO
Added new info discovered on Discover OEM batteries

[BuggyBoy]

On 8/14/2024 at 9:35 PM, GNFO said:

It is possible that this manufacturer has decided to program its BMS this way to limit their liability.  I found this article to be helpful:  https://www.master-instruments.com.au/tech-talk-article/3/explaining-the-limits-of-lifepo4-batteries-in-parallel.html

On its own, there shouldn't be a limit to parallel batteries increasing the available amps, but manufacturers can be worried about variations in individual batteries leading to an overdraw on the better performing battery. If all the batteries in parallel have the functionality for their BMS to communicate with each other, you wouldn't need to worry about charge balancing and such.  My 48V ReLion batteries have a CANbus system for that precise purpose, although they still limit the number of parallel batteries to 8.

If what the manufacturer of the batteries you're looking at is saying is true, they don't do that and are minimizing their warranty risk.

If you have no other options, 200a will work (and I see they allow a surge of 400a for 5 seconds), but you might have to go slower on the hills. The original Discover batteries only shows a max continuous of 100a (for 88 minutes), although I was able to find info elsewhere that they have a max discharge of 1050a for 5 sec.  Can't really tell how long they could theoretically put out 400a, but I doubt it's for long.

Of course, the Giant rep may also not really understand what they're talking about and are playing it safe.  Maybe ask for further information from an actual engineering contact in the company? Just not sure if the person you talked to was only customer service with a set of info sheets in front of them.

So its not usual for a 200a BMS to limit combined continuous output across multiple batteries in parallel? Most BMS systems will allow it the combined output?
I still don't get how people are combining four 48v 50ah with 50a output batteries in parallel with a 100a BMS (for example) and getting enough current...

[GNFO]

10 hours ago, BuggyBoy said:

So its not usual for a 200a BMS to limit combined continuous output across multiple batteries in parallel? Most BMS systems will allow it the combined output?
I still don't get how people are combining four 48v 50ah with 50a output batteries in parallel with a 100a BMS (for example) and getting enough current...

Don't have a lot of examples of 200a batteries, but from what I've seen here none of the 100a (or lower) batteries seem to advertise a limit to just the amps of a single battery.  It is probably why some (like the ones I use) will bother to say what maximum number of their batteries can be wired in parallel.  Since Giant does advertise that up to four of their 200a batteries can be wired in parallel, that's why I would want to actually ask a technician from their company instead of just a customer representative.  Exchange emails with someone who actually knows the internal logic of their BMS.

[BuggyBoy]

On 8/19/2024 at 8:43 PM, GNFO said:

Don't have a lot of examples of 200a batteries, but from what I've seen here none of the 100a (or lower) batteries seem to advertise a limit to just the amps of a single battery.  It is probably why some (like the ones I use) will bother to say what maximum number of their batteries can be wired in parallel.  Since Giant does advertise that up to four of their 200a batteries can be wired in parallel, that's why I would want to actually ask a technician from their company instead of just a customer representative.  Exchange emails with someone who actually knows the internal logic of their BMS.

 

On 8/19/2024 at 8:43 PM, GNFO said:

Don't have a lot of examples of 200a batteries, but from what I've seen here none of the 100a (or lower) batteries seem to advertise a limit to just the amps of a single battery.  It is probably why some (like the ones I use) will bother to say what maximum number of their batteries can be wired in parallel.  Since Giant does advertise that up to four of their 200a batteries can be wired in parallel, that's why I would want to actually ask a technician from their company instead of just a customer representative.  Exchange emails with someone who actually knows the internal logic of their BMS.

The BMS installed  our range of lithium batteries combine to provide greater load capacity - not greater throughput.
We specifically choose to install BMS that don't increase in throughput amperage to protect the battery systems we manufacture from being used in applications they are not designed for (such as off grid storage, cranking, complex UPS etc...)

Connecting a pair of 100A 48v lithium batteries will provide a 200A bank capacity - while the BMS will remain 200A continuous and 400A peak.
 
There are lithium batteries on the market that have larger BMS - we don't sell nor deal in them, truth be told - but they are available 
May be worth looking into ranges such as the Lynx 400A 48v or Daly's own 400A 48v BMS unit. 
 
What application were you intending to use the batteries for that 200A continuous is not sufficient?

[BuggyBoy]

On 6/28/2024 at 6:28 AM, mark walkom said:

spoke to litime and they don't have the 48v batteries in au, with no short term plans to sell them

Anyone use the Allion AL4830-GC2?
https://www.solarbatteriesonline.com.au/product/allion-lithium-ion-48v-battery-al4830-gc2/

Maximum continuous discharge current 60A (2C)

Maximum peak discharge current 65A for 30 seconds, 100A for 10 second

Would x4 be enough? Technically yes - 240a continuous/260a 30secs/400a 10secs - but thats at the limit of the battery ($5424)

5 might be better giving: 300a continuous/325a 30 secs/500a 10secs....but expensive AUS$6780!

[GNFO]

9 hours ago, BuggyBoy said:

 

The BMS installed  our range of lithium batteries combine to provide greater load capacity - not greater throughput.
We specifically choose to install BMS that don't increase in throughput amperage to protect the battery systems we manufacture from being used in applications they are not designed for (such as off grid storage, cranking, complex UPS etc...)

Connecting a pair of 100A 48v lithium batteries will provide a 200A bank capacity - while the BMS will remain 200A continuous and 400A peak.
 
There are lithium batteries on the market that have larger BMS - we don't sell nor deal in them, truth be told - but they are available 
May be worth looking into ranges such as the Lynx 400A 48v or Daly's own 400A 48v BMS unit. 
 
What application were you intending to use the batteries for that 200A continuous is not sufficient?

Well, at least you got a definitive answer - even if it is that they are covering their legal behinds.  Doesn't help you, but I don't think they're looking to the future. As "applications" go, powering a UTV isn't much of a stretch beyond their original intent of golf carts. 

I don't think the other battery you mentioned is much of an improvement on theirs.  If you are at the point of having to pick something right now, 200A will work most of the time, but steep slopes with a heavy load might be challenging.

[BuggyBoy]

On 5/14/2024 at 5:01 PM, HiSUNFarmboy said:

GNFO... excellent work finding a decent replacement. do you have a 1 year later review of the ReLion Insight? 

BuggyBoy there is at least two suppliers of ReLion Insight in Australia, They seem a better solution vs Lithium Golf amplus. 

I plan to mull over the purchase for the next few weeks before I fork out the money for the upgrade. My discovery batteries must be over 4 years old and I work them hard everyday, a great testament to the quality due to being far undersized for the E1, as my E1 always crawled up my steep driveway and other hills. Only the last two or so years it fails to climb my steepest hill.  

hmmm - https://www.rjbatt.com.au/news-and-advice/relion-insight-series-48v-battery-recall

Spike to RJ - they are stopping doing them - cant find another Aus supplier - do you know who else stocks them in Aus?

[BuggyBoy]

23 hours ago, GNFO said:

Well, at least you got a definitive answer - even if it is that they are covering their legal behinds.  Doesn't help you, but I don't think they're looking to the future. As "applications" go, powering a UTV isn't much of a stretch beyond their original intent of golf carts. 

I don't think the other battery you mentioned is much of an improvement on theirs.  If you are at the point of having to pick something right now, 200A will work most of the time, but steep slopes with a heavy load might be challenging.

Only have steep hills here unfortunately!

Might have to go for x5 Allion GC2 48v/30ah which can push out 65a for 20 secs, giving me 325a in total. Just Aus$6.5k. Expensive exercise! But hopefully that would be it for 5-10 Years. Might start with 4 and see how we go, and save up for a 5th!

[GNFO]

7 hours ago, BuggyBoy said:

hmmm - https://www.rjbatt.com.au/news-and-advice/relion-insight-series-48v-battery-recall

Spike to RJ - they are stopping doing them - cant find another Aus supplier - do you know who else stocks them in Aus?

Yeah, I already discussed this one when @HiSUNFarmboy mentioned it earlier in this thread.  That recall was 1-1/2 years ago and they had already fixed the problem just before I bought my batteries.  Unfortunately I think ReLion only had a distributor agreement with RJ for Australia. I'm guessing the logistics and cost of getting lithium batteries into Australia is "challenging" for various reasons.  Probably why ReLion had to use a distributor in country instead of selling directly, or why the battery lineup on the LiTime website is so much more limited in the Australian version vs the USA version.

I don't know if HiSUNFarmboy found an alternative, since he's on your side of the world.  Seems like you, him, and @mark walkom are all dealing with the same roadblock. A year and a half ago here in the US it took me a while to find batteries that could be put together for 400a continuous. There are multiple alternatives available here now, but unfortunately the Australian market seems to be lagging.  Not much help, I know. You actually have an importation problem instead of a technical problem!

Osney's solution might work for you if you can find a surplus/salvage Low Speed Vehicle (that might just be a US term) or EV battery, but from a technical standpoint it's not for the faint of heart.

[GNFO]

8 hours ago, BuggyBoy said:

hmmm - https://www.rjbatt.com.au/news-and-advice/relion-insight-series-48v-battery-recall

Spike to RJ - they are stopping doing them - cant find another Aus supplier - do you know who else stocks them in Aus?

Might also add that this whole thread was started by @didgeridoo, but they haven't visited the site for over a year now.  Despite the name, I suspect they are in the US and not Australia but those batteries came from Bigbattery.com.  They don't have an AU website and for international shipping they say you have to contact them on a case by case basis. They do seem to have more options now than when didgeridoo did the conversion and some of them could actually get up to the 400a max, just not with the GC2 form factor.

[didgeridoo]

Hey, guys! Yes, I am in the US. The batteries from bigbattery.com are still doing well for me. There sure are a lot more options. I am happy with the cureent weight to performance ratio of the buggy for now and will probably not reconfigure until the batteries or the Hisun UTV (more likely) wears out. 

[mark walkom]

I wonder if something like https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/1005004622768370.html or https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/1005006129467622.html would work

 

both 48v, single unit, bms included. the only question would be if they are ip rated at all (which I can't find info on). they only seem to offer 50A sustained output though

[GNFO]

On 8/26/2024 at 4:03 AM, mark walkom said:

I wonder if something like https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/1005004622768370.html or https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/1005006129467622.html would work

 

both 48v, single unit, bms included. the only question would be if they are ip rated at all (which I can't find info on). they only seem to offer 50A sustained output though

At least from what I can see, the first one doesn't ship to Australia, but maybe that's just what I see from the US with an Australian shipping location selected.  What I see ships from Poland for some reason.

Regarding a 50A output, that's a problem.  You'd need 8 of them and space would be an issue.  

But maybe you're on the right path.  I was wondering if something from the wild world of Alibaba might have something for Australia. It's just hard to pick good from bad and sometimes shipping has a customs or minimum order cost you can't see right away. Customer service might also be nonexistent but it depends.  I bought two Tesla frunk actuator kits in 2020 from a company in Hong Kong and the guy actually answered a question I had in the middle of his nighttime.  He had to do chat only because talking would wake up his wife and kid! That's more dedicated than I would be.

[BuggyBoy]

Depends if the BMS is 200, and is capable of being used in parallel, and allows doubling of amps.

99% of the reviews seem AI or server farm generated - too many red flags for me!

[mark walkom]

for the aussies here - https://outbax.com.au/products/voltx-12v-100ah-bluetooth-daly-smart-lifepo4-battery is on special if you use the code from https://www.ozbargain.com.au/node/867838

[Kingfish]

So I took the leap and did the LiPo4 conversion.  I purchased 2 Ogrphy 48v 100ah off Amazon when they were on sale @ $789 ea.  All I can say is WOW, the difference is amazing.  First is the obvious weight difference.  Two 88lb batts vs 8 discover batteries which I think are 65lb each.  It actually feels like I have power steering there is so much less weight on the front end.  Second is the performance.  With the old Discover ones I could only drive around in M at speeds from 5-10 mph for 14 miles before the low voltage code started flashing.  One time I wasn't sure I was going to make it back to the house before it shut down.  I just got back from a test drive.  Both batts were at 95%.  I traveled almost 20 miles in H range at or near top speed the entire trip.  After arriving home one battery was at 63% and the other 68% so I roughly used 30% although the mfg. recommends not taking them below 20% for longevity.  The torque it has now is almost too much.  If your driving along at 15 or 20 mph. and you hit a bump, just a little extra pressure on the pedal will snap your head back.  It held speed going up modest hills which even when new the vehicle wouldn't do.

The battery management system is really great as well.  Bluetooth connectivity to your phone.  You can monitor each battery for voltage, amperage, temp, and wattage consumed.  You can switch either battery on and off even while under motion.  It actually drives a little smoother with only one battery on because the torque is a little lower.  The BMS has overcharge prevention as well as low temp cutoff to prevent damage.  You can also switch batteries on and off while charging.  I'm not sure why one battery is being used a little more over the other.  I just figure it's slight differences in internal resistances.  I may contact the mfg about it at some point and see what they say.

Everything worked just the same as with the old dry cells, even the temp. gauge on the dash.  I'm not sure exactly were the sensor is so I was surprised when it started ticking up.  The dash voltmeter is an unknown what it will show when I get near full discharge, but I suspect due to the nature of Lithium batteries, it will just stay on full until until near the end then drop quickly.  My only issue is with the Delta-Q charger.  I changed the charge algorithm to 386 which was the closest to what the mfg recommended (57.6 +- .8v)  When the batts reach full charge the BMS stops all current flow.  This causes the charger to flash yellow and show error code 013 which is battery is no longer accepting charge which is exactly what is happening.  My only concern is what if any effect this will have on the charger.  I can hear a relay clicking in and out as it continues to try to send a charge to the batts.  Does anyone know if this will cause harm to the IC1200?  I worry about leaving the charger plugged in overnight because the batts will be fully charged before I can get out there to unplug it in the morning.

The only real issue I had with the installation was the physical size of the new batteries.  They are much larger so they did not fit in the tray the way the old batteries did.  I had to remove the trays and build a wooden ones and use ratchet straps to hold them in place.  That will work for now, but I will need to figure out a better arrangement in the future.

I am extremely pleased with how this all went and knowing I will get many more years of life out of the E1.  I highly recommend this upgrade if you are considering it.  The only unknown is will the batteries keep working without issue.  They do have a 5 year mfg warranty, but since they come from China (as most things) who knows if they will be around then, but it wouldn't kill me to have to buy a replacement at some point at that price.